lack of support on new & currently active?

[Strömkarlen]

Indie kids need special 'indified' versions of other genres in order to render them listenable, as they simply can't handle those same genres in their raw, pure, (and unfashionable) forms.

Which is something, I can agree. I see indified black metal, indified punk, indified noise, indified PE... Not that it all would be good, but in case of rejecting history and aesthetic of for example Power Electronics or Industrial-noise, I feel that it doesn't turn into healthy progression, but often perhaps even the opposite. Nevertheless, in context of live gigs, I don't oppose at all teaming up with success of indie music. To isolate completely into tiny fractions leads to suffocating death.

I don't know if you need to have mainstream cover to be indie noise. It was just one way to try to get a grip on the term.

I see any "indified" version of anything as a cleaned up version that you can bring a date to*. It is like every second month someone gets a new girlfriend and suddenly feels a big urge to tells us that we all have to mend our ways. No more porn, no more nazis...

[kettu]

about the crossover shows in finland, didnt something like that happen in that squathouse in helsinki that got tore down in 05-06. I never went there but ive since talked to helsinki people about the very same thing but I suggested punk bands with noise guys doing their thing.

if I remember correctly somebody mentioned that a few shows like that had happened+ there were those that happened in the last few years in semifinal, I forget the name they had given to the events. pineconehat drone, shitty tape music guy, prurient. those shows could be filed under crossover since there more artscool ladies than  noisers and industrial guys.

[Nyodene D]

What is a "indie noise band"? Just curious which bands you are refering to. Bloodyminded?

The only band I could think of here that would fit that category in Sweden would be Ättestupa. Mainly because they are the only noise related band over here that have had a hype surrounding them and got good reviews in the mainstream music press.

Not at all about Bloodyminded.  Despite what anyone thinks of their particular style, etc, they've long outlive the "indie noise" thing by almost 15 years. I personally love their stuff, but if they're despised, they're at least a despised band that was at least authentic in terms of the scene.

I meant more akin to US bands like HEALTH, Wavves, Ducktails, etc. For most, it would be a continuation of alt/indie rock into a "experimental" realm.

To me, there's two major divisions in noise right now:  Industrial Noise and Psychedelic Noise.  Both are valid styles and genres, but they ultimately differ from an aethetic delivery and presentation.  That said, I've seen industrial bands do psych drone sets and psych noise bands like Sick Llama do sets that sounded like Atrax Morgue.  Currently, in the US at least, psych noise has taken over industrial noise in terms of popularity.  This isn't a bad thing.  In fact, it draws in a lot of cool elements from krautrock and 70s synth rock that influence the music in a new way.    

What I think IS a bad thing are sites like Pitchfork.com who use "noise" as a way to describe lo-fi, grainy bedroom shoegaze and put it on everything that's not a 1/4/5 progression. This brings in bands like HEATLH, Wavves, Animal Collective (whom I like, just not as "noise") and The Dirty Projectors.  Maybe they're experimental, but not noise.  Unfortunately, what this does is:

A)  Introduces people from the mainstream to "noise" in a way that doesn't acknowledge industrial traditions (if even not in sound, then in passing) or even the current scene's style marks.  Very few of the bands they describe as noise would be seen on a bill playing next to someone like Wolf Eyes, Prurient, Xenophobic Ejaculation or Emeralds.
B)  Cheapens all noise as poor production quality and shoegazing and studio trickery instead of a conscious decision by the artist
C)  Encourages the mass-production of "noise" as a way to cash in on hipsters who are trying to be weirder than their peers, but really can't stomach legitmate psych/industrial noise

CRUSH THE FALSE.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

Wavves

I haven't heard this group but after seeing a youtube clip of the singer retarding himself over NIRVANA's Nevermind album I wanted to beat him to death with a tyre iron.

And what kind of a mongoloid name is Wavves anyway? Can they not spell?

[Nyodene D]

no, see, the two v's looks kinda like waves....it's some high-art shit...

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

Wow, that's some profound shit. I'm afraid I lack the intelligence and intellect to grasp that.

Moving back on topic a bit. Even if it is good for genres to evolve and draw in new influences (though I'm sure krautrock and various psychedelic stuff was always an influence for some, even from the very start) a problem occurrs when, for want of a better word, outsiders with little to no knowledge appear and take a dislike to certain things they either know nothing about or don't understand and start condemning and impose rules for what is permitted and what is not. An example being many a No Fun visitor who've heard of Wolf Eyes or think Thurston Moore is one crazy out there dude only to piss their pants when SLOGUN or MACRONYMPHA take the stage. And then the whiney faggot fest takes off.

[Nyodene D]

Exactly.  That's another aspect of why the propagation of mainstream music as "noise" is harmful.  It makes it look as if THAT is the most extreme, outlandish thing out there and that people who, traditionally, have been harsh/heavy/dominating are going to look like they're just trying to play the whole "one-up" game on who's louder/tougher/more unlistenable.  From personal experience in a college town, whenever I or some of my harsh noise/P.E. buddies do sets at noise shows, people always tell us that we're too loud or aggressive and that "nobody likes what you do because nobody can listen to it."

I can understand if my stuff is genuine shit, but these are comments overheard at noise shows, where the quieter drone / shoegazer / ambient acts can get away with it and everyone just thinks my friends and I are being assholes and trying to make everyone leave... A lot of this is because many of the people who come to college-town noise shows tend to come at noise from an indie-sanctioned approach.  I've never really had this reaction where there is an established industrial scene, so either people are lying to my face or people just aren't getting why I am shouting and making loud, angry noises...

P.S. the wavves crack was intended to be sarcastic.  Sorry if I inadvertently rubbed you the wrong way.  It was a knock on them, not you.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

No probs squire, I heard your sarcasm and my comment was intended the same way. Not towards you but any arty dude out there who would consider Wavves not just the hight of chic but also be willing to write off anyone of a differing opinion as lacking the sophistication they themselves so blissfully possess.

I proudly admit to lacking such sophistication where some sacred cows are concerned. Like japanese noise or Yoko shrieky annoying art cunt Ono.

[Nyodene D]

Sacred cows are interesting in this day and age of digital music press and reviews.  Check out the year-end lists on sites like Pitchfork and watch for how many "noise" bands make the list.  Ironically, probably at least 25 out of 100 of the best albums from 2009 are going to be described as "noise". Noise is hip right now to a lot of kids.  Unfortunately it accompanies the sentiment that people who do noise are doing it to be hip or extreme. Stupid, really. 

I know I sound like a broken record bitching about Pitchfork and stuff, but the reason that they' gather so much ire is because they act as such an important hype machine in the indie scene.  Like I said before, I often book indie rock shows, and have learned that if a band gets a review of 7.4 or higher on Pitchfork, they can ask for another $1200 guarantee (industry practice, I suppose).  For instance, Wolf Eyes costs a great deal nowadays to book through their agent because of the press they got.  Fortuantely, they tend to do a lot of DIY shows these days as well.

Frankly, I resent Pitchfork for dictating the tastes of indie rock music to hipster kids.  Now that they're bringing noise into the fold, am I going to have to worry about booking noise bands for exuberant prices?  (In some ways, I already do have to because of this).

Thankfully, this trend has only happened since about 2007.  Before that, Pitchfork abhorred noise (NON's Children of The Black Sun got a 0.5 out of 10.0 when it came out).  Hopefully the trend won't continue to the point where things get harder for the true DIY scene.

[Nyodene D]

guess the shift came a bit earlier than 2007:

2000 - 2002: NON as noisy bullshit

Receive The Flame: http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/5827-receive-the-flame/

Children of the Black Sun: http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/5829-children-of-the-black-sun/

2004: NON as brilliant, kitschy

Terra Incognita: http://pitchfork.com/reviews/albums/5830-terra-incognita-ambient-works-1975-present-featuring-boyd-rice/

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

The text is too small for these old eyes to even try reading that but I doubt there's anything useful written in there anyway. I liked Children of the Black Sun when is came out in 2002 but hadn't listened to it in years when I played it again recently. It's weak as hell and probably deserves a 0.5 out of 10. I might have given him 1 out of 10 but not more than that.

[Nyodene D]

regardless of the quality of the album (I personally love it), if Pitchfork panned two of NON's albums, why two years later (when US noise was building in credibility with the indie press) did they fall all over themselves to praise Boyd's work?

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

Not wanting to defend what seems like a bunch of fuckheads too much but that last NON album is a reissue of very old material if I'm not wrong. Maybe in this case it's about the early material being so much better than the later stuff.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

yeah, that compilation of ambient works is exactly that. Ambient works, so it'll probably get different comments than his other style albums.


Perhaps if turning back to topic mentioned in name of this thread, ACTUALLY, now when I think of it, anyone ever noticed the same:  A lot of veterans of the scene, who have started with tapes, then LP's, then CD's, and lately they have shifted to mainly CDR and even mp3 file "releases"? Thinking of things like PBM, Hands To, AMK, Chop Shop, Pacific 231, and so on. List could go on for long time. You wonder what it is? You start to wonder, is it really that none of these guys receive vinyl/cd offers? Or if format, sales, distribution etc etc. is actually irrelevant to them. That new guy active in messageboards getting offers from left & right to press even 500 CD's... For many of old veterans who aren't busy networking all the time, the high quality new material or high quality re-issue simply be... file or self burned cdr. One starts to think that perhaps there isn't lack of support for new things... Lets say lack of ambition in general. Like label who will make long term plans, accepting possibility of having album in stock for next 10 years. Knowing that audience is not hungry simply for great release, but collectible limited edition, and instead of going the easier route, choosing the hard way. Keeping item in stock for decades, allowing such policy for new and old artists. I think if one can sell 100 CDR's, he could sell 200 vinyl or CD.

I know, that personally, I've yet to really make up my mind. I would like the fact that records sell enough to break even quickly, but in other hand I'd like stuff to be available. I think I have supported plenty of new up & coming artists, but also done well known names with established reputation.

What I'd say, it comes to fact that scene is so small. I believe it could be bigger. It certainly can't be much smaller, or it would simply vanish. If there is really just 100 people all around this globe into getting CD of ______, it feels strange.

[Strömkarlen]

What is a "indie noise band"? Just curious which bands you are refering to. Bloodyminded?

The only band I could think of here that would fit that category in Sweden would be Ättestupa. Mainly because they are the only noise related band over here that have had a hype surrounding them and got good reviews in the mainstream music press.

Not at all about Bloodyminded.  Despite what anyone thinks of their particular style, etc, they've long outlive the "indie noise" thing by almost 15 years. I personally love their stuff, but if they're despised, they're at least a despised band that was at least authentic in terms of the scene.

I meant more akin to US bands like HEALTH, Wavves, Ducktails, etc. For most, it would be a continuation of alt/indie rock into a "experimental" realm.

I actually don't have anything against Bloodyminded. I always thought Intrinsic Action was really funny. It was more in the line of them getting coverage in Vice and stuff like that.

Now when you mention Ducktails and Wavves I understand better what you mean. Two bands I've tried to listen to and I can't hear what is great about them. But I guess if they gets more people interested good stuff it is ok with me. I won't hold my breath though.