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Author Topic: PLAYLIST with COMMENTS/REVIEWS  (Read 4458880 times)
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Fistfuck Masonanie
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« Reply #7905 on: May 07, 2020, 03:45:45 PM »

Spore Spawn - Okureteshimai c20 (Foul Prey)

This one really took me by surprise. To be fair, I haven't heard any of the artist's past releases.

Very well attuned and a great breadth of detail. Carefully rides the rail between quieter passages and building to harsh moments in a thoughtful way. This is very close in style to the recent Kazumoto Endo CD, Keiyo. I've heard this style labeled as "post harsh noise" or something to that affect but not sure it completely applies or if I'm in the love with the connotations the word "post" carries with it.

What really makes this stand out is the great composure and intelligent flow to the two tracks. There is an extreme and beautiful attention to detail in how the two tracks progress. Both in the narrative sense and also in the flow of the cut-up style utilized in the harsher moments.

Going to keep my eye on future releases from the artist. Excellent stuff.

https://foulprey.bandcamp.com/album/okureteshimai
« Last Edit: May 08, 2020, 04:02:40 PM by Fistfuck Masonanie » Logged
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« Reply #7906 on: May 08, 2020, 02:52:58 PM »

Blind Date - Acting Class (Oxen)

Tyler Keen's Blind Date has been one of the most consistent American noise acts in recent years. Release after release seems to somehow out-do the last which is impressive as everything I've heard going back to Open Trap on New Forces has been exemplary work. The sound is in line with classic Americanoise junk metal distorted to the outer limits, however his ability to dial in the frequencies and textures is unmatched by most current artists. The bass flattens and the mids are crunchy as fuck while coming through extremely clear from one another. The CD format benefits the work here as the frequencies are extremely pounding and crystal clear. Even after the 39 minute disc is over I'm left wanting more.
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« Reply #7907 on: May 08, 2020, 07:25:32 PM »

Blind Date - Acting Class (Oxen)

Even after the 39 minute disc is over I'm left wanting more.

Agreed, this ended and I immediately got that “Awww...” feeling. Fantastic disc.
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« Reply #7908 on: May 08, 2020, 09:04:49 PM »



The result of the past several weeks of listening. I've been spending some time listening to other things, but these have all been getting multiple plays for good reason. The MSBR/Proof Of The Shooting 7" (MSBR version) is near the top of the list for one of my favorite noise 7"s ever (along with the Pain Jerk/Skin Crime 7" on Self Abuse). Just incredibly crafted noise from both projects, but I think the MSBR side might be my favorite MSBR I've heard so far. This is one of those releases that it so good that you should do yourself a favor and not buy 5 average noise tapes and use the money to buy this instead. I feel like I could flip this thing over and over all day long.

The new batch of tapes from Dada Drumming are incredible as expected, the standout for me here being the Scathing/T.E.F. split cs. I'm excited to get some more Scathing in my life because his side of the split is just totally top-notch dynamic harsh noise. I don't even need to mention how good the T.E.F. side is because honestly, is there any bad T.E.F.?!? The A Fail Association "Yellow Pearl" cs is outstanding as well. I like how AFA is not afraid to take chances sonically and compositionally-speaking with its sound and that I'm never really totally sure what kind of harsh noise I'm going to get. It always delivers though, and this tape is no exception. Since "Someone Wake The Maid It's Time To Kill The Butcher" grabs an award for one of the best compilation titles ever, thankfully the noise contained in it has an equally strong presence. With tracks from Worth, Scathing, Mo*Te, Hiroshi Hasegawa, AFA, Richard Ramirez, Kazehito Seki, and more, I don't need to tell you that this is already a modern classic and should not be slept on. Bonus points for the full-sized insert pages for each artist on the comp.

I finally tracked down a copy of the Yellow Tears & Ahlzagailzehguh "Sitophilic Remorse" c10 released on Collapsed Hole Noise & Happy Face Entertainment in 2008 for the Yellow Tears/Ahlzagailzehguh 2008 tour. Although the liner notes don't indicate, I'm thinking that the sounds on this are the result of Ahlzagailzehguh arranging and editing the sounds of himself and Yellow Tears into one hellfire of a ten minute tape. This was my favorite era of Yellow Tears too, when they were just a chaotic harsh noise "band".

Finally, I rounded things out with three Abfall tapes, "Einaschern", "Folterhaus", and "Zerstorung". These all are perhaps self-released demo tapes, two of which are dubbed onto factory blanks with simple hand-written labels and printed paper j-cards. I couldn't find any evidence of these on Discogs either. I was only familiar with the project previously due it's association with MSNP, but I'm glad I decided to take the plunge with it. They are fantastic and provide a wide range of styles; 90's American crunch, cut-up noise, sometimes more droney and experimental sounding. It's unfortunate that it seems there is little Abfall available currently, but I'm happy to have come across these.
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« Reply #7909 on: May 10, 2020, 01:38:06 PM »

^
agree about the msbr/proof of the shooting 7"... maybe my favorite noise 7" as well! i have the soundprobe version which has a thick layer of spitball type material for a cover... the pic on discogs is my copy.

re: sitophilic remorse - the tracks were made from recordings of us all jamming together... it was recorded at my place, using my tools and tricks for both recording and editing, which is probably why it seems to lean heavy on the ahlz side of sound. we did all take turns editing/constructing the pieces though. and yes, they were all playing pure noise! that was probably the last harsh stuff they did as they had already recorded most of the pissmop lp. weird to me that it seems to be a rather obscure tape, with only 40 people having it in their collections on discogs when we got rid of 132 copies over the course of that one month tour. wish i had saved the original source material, we recorded for hours even though it ended up as a c10, and also that double a-sided c15 i did as a fundraiser/promo for first burning fleshtival. best of times, for me.
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« Reply #7910 on: May 10, 2020, 08:00:49 PM »

TRERIKSRÖSET - S/t - C62 / CD
Who the hell records 31 minute live-to-tape takes successfully these days? Or should I say; who even tries? Anyway, a tape recorded as a part of an art object of sorts. I wont get into reviewing the other parts here, but it was worth waiting four years to get the damn thing, let's leave it at that. This is gloves-off bare-knuckle harsh noise. Warm, smelly, slippery and risky. A brouhaha turned violent in the local health club sauna. Take the neanderthal rawness of Puking Blood and add the dynamics of Venal plus years of fine-tuned skills and you might end up with this. Tense all the way, with some truly heart stopping moments peppered throughout (the last ten minutes of side a and the first ten of the flipside are twenty minutes of non-stop goosebumps). An exhausting yet very rewarding exercise, this tape, and quite the statement too.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 08:31:49 PM by Baglady » Logged
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« Reply #7911 on: May 11, 2020, 07:55:03 AM »

SMALL CRUEL PARTY C-90 comp tape with selection of earliest experimental industrial action. Far more painful and disturbing in late 80’s than the later stuff. Later stuff perhaps better, but iif you need it raw and painful, then early stuff is good.
Yeast Culture ”s/t” tape. also late 80’s. Obscure, suffocating, odd, arty noise humming. Always very personal and labor heavy hand made packaging that address to overall atmopshere!

PAIN JERK ”Neurotten” tape
Listened this several times over few days. I recall discussion with mr. Pain Jerk where he described challenge of reissues. Always listening master and concluding that would be better to cut all the lazy moments that go nowhere. Then end up having just 10 minutes left of 45 minutes tape.
I listen in disbelief. Lazy moments? Pain Jerk? What?!
Stuff like Neurotte, there is barely anything one could cut away. Even the brief few seconds in the begining when he basically prepares to unleash the beast, is there for good reason. Rest of tape is just pure gold.

THE HATERS ”Beh” tape
1993, simple things of sort things Haters is known for: loops that are different lengths, so material is seemingly ”the same”, but loops are always in different position compared to eachothers and material is never the eactly identical moment.

R.D.P. ”The green is shining brightly” tape
Probably 90’s japan. I think no info about this tape found online. Some tracks are pretty good ritual-ambient-industrial thing, but also more musical songs emerge...

KADEF ”open grave rotten face” tape
Another excellent primitive harsh works. Oversized artwork and who could get tired of corpses on noise tapes - as long as they look good like this.


After this batch of stuff, I have been away from home for days, so no stereo system and physical record collection at hand, but the urge to listen noise is not dictated by lack of means to listen it ”properly”. So youtube that was... for:

K2 noise tournament series 1-6 was listened. Too bad vol 7 does not appear at youtube. This 7” series is one of the greatest. I do have whole set as physical vinyl, and I would urge anyone to grab any - or all - of them. No matter who K2 collaborated with in the 90’s, it is worth of your money. Those who doubt this, can listen 6 volumes from youtube. R&G, Haters, Smell & Quim, Aube, De Fabriek, RLW. All those names, real craftmen of interesting sounds. Can’t really pick favorite. I think all are supreme!
Hijokaidan ”modern” was a fierce reminder how noise is sometimes most painful when there is zero ”crunch”, zero bass frequencies. Just sheer ripping painful noise.

Con-Dom ”sermons” 8x 7" set. Mr. Snotnosed / Black Operations was nice enough to post complete sermons set into youtube. It is almost devastating to see it has barely 400 listeners in two years. I have visited so many museums and galleries during the years, that I feel rather comfortable to conclude I am familiar with usual level of modern art out there. Of course there are unbeatable masters, but what come to conceptual art, unless I would feel from elitist perspective it is actually GOOD that Con-Dom is not wasted on art world - I would feel that it would be shame that the crowd out there has to settle on things on level that is presented by (for example) Helsinki modern art museum instead of being able to experience THIS.
Sermons, in its complexity, in its references to religion, history, current era, even pop culture... It appears to play in very different league as the often retarded contemporary art. Just like the noise is almost like puzzle made out of great found noises made by other artists, Con-Dom treats them the same like the information he collects and re-assembles and re-contextualizes. Everything put into new context, but discoveries of original source may reveal new angle. While some could say that topics presented here is like ABC of industrial music, or power electronics, I am not sure if it is? Con-Dom of course deals with the core questions, that barely have exact answers, but one should not pass them as being ”the same” as in power electronics in general. I’d say often they are almost opposite of what most PE bands deal with?
As being sort of ultra critical guy, I am not *always* 100% convinced of everything that there is. In this set, something like Hatred 7” feels intellectually lazy or even dishonest. I understand the logic and perhaps even intent, yet, am not totally convinced.
Except that if it is actually meant to display THAT. The dishonesty of certain type of hatred. Whether it is, It will not remove fact that it is magnificent 7”. And it may be also merely result of my own perspective distorting what artist meant.
I recall sitting with Con-Dom and the female companion of the time, who told everybody else knows the Con-Dom, in ski-mask, as guy who does these sort of offensive performances, but she knows him as they real guy without the mask. And mr. Con-Dom just commented that ”how do you that the guy without mask is *the real* Dando”, and not the one with mask. Almost obvious angle, that for some reason may not occur in though without reminder.
It seems to be most common assumption that art is *not* real, and this odd, human skin dressed facade one presents within mundane daily life is more ”real”. What a load of crap, I’d say. But without going further, just need to say, if you for any reason did not listen Con-Dom, I urge to check it out. If nothing else, then search youtube for ”sermons” and the complete 8 x 7” set rip will present you level of conceptual extreme electronics that remains unbeaten till this day.

NOTE: On this youtube rip - amusing is that Glory 7” plays wrong speed. Its 45rpm and here the low pitched roar indicates its ripped with 33 rpm

HIJOKAIDAN "Modern" and "Romance" CD's. Windom being my favorite, and these two are from same era of turn of 80/90's. Absolutely ripping high pitched, nearly "no bass frequency" noise screech.

MERZBOW "Dadarottenvator" . Rip of the original press of LP. 175 in wooden box. It is not as good as Project Frequency LP for example, but with it flaws, nevertheless, master works! There is more kind of searching where to go and seemingly failing to really go there, but then finding other things and doing really brilliant noise between the lost moments. This is the thing I miss from PDB label discography AND also would like to get the LP for sake of what it is. Soon to be re-issued by Urashima!

Back home at the stereo system, and piled handful of less celebrated Japanese noise related names.
Joji Yuasa LP is the first of the Omega Point obscure Japanese tape music of Japan series releases. There was many more CD’s in the series. I once visited the ”store” of his. Apartment, with store section. Bought mostly known noise names, since the obscure japanese early exlectronic experimental stuff is mostly unknown territory for me. He was playing some great sounding stuff and I asked what it was, and he commented something in lines of ”unreleased old recordings, not for sale”. First side of this LP is chanting and minimal tape manipulations and subtle efx. That’s from the 60’s. B-side his latest works from the 70’s, utterly minimal and primive electronic sounds. Artists explains in liner notes, not only working with sounds since 50’s in pre- Sony company and being excited of emerging tape music before there was even ”stereo recording” available. Almost half century later some small label put of vinyl ltd 150 copies... hah.

K.Mizutani ”same thing makes always her laugh” LP
1989 album of guy who is known from countless Merzbow recordings where he collaborates with Masami, but very little solo material out there as well as information is pretty limited? Some of the album is very good experimental noise. Not harsh noise per-se, but certainly steps to level of noise, while some of the other stuff is free drum chaos or manipulated bird singing etc. Those who like 80’s Merzbow with less noisy approach, probably enjoy this too.

jojo + sakevi ”mammalia” LP
mr. Hijokaidan and mr. GISM team up for 1987 album that could be said to be not far from the western 80’s experimental/industrial stuff. If you have just listened some Ultra and German Shepherds, could be surprised how there are a lot of elements here that feel pretty close to such material. You will not find Hijokaidan or gism sound here really!

And then much later’ 2000’s material:
Masayuki Imanishi / Mr. Natural split LP
Unlike the pricey and ”collectible” items, I guess you can score this for less than 10 bucks! I have no idea who mr. Imanishi is, but he delivers kind of noisy digital manipulations in good way. While it is fast and sort of technical, it has very good taste and evades the types of glitch and the types of kaospad sounds I tend to dislike, but doing things you barely could do in purely analogue gear.
Mr. Natural is one of those guys, who selected such name for his project, that no matter how fantastic material he would carve out of his gear, it will never be ”popular” - that I could bet on. For listeners, it’s of course great to be able to get affordable, or even dirt cheap good releases still decades after they came out!

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« Reply #7912 on: May 13, 2020, 10:26:09 AM »

V/A - Mantras of Vivisection (CD, Obsessive Fundamental Realism): Good compilation. I might skip the opening track (The Rita) when I listen to it again as that gives me next to nothing (and sounds almost exactly like other stuff I heard from him), but aside from that, it's a solid comp. I hadn't heard Linekraft before and it's a very good track, so I might have to check out more of his stuff. I generally like Reptile Womb, but I think this is one of his best tracks so far. Pity about the one sided insert, but I understood that was a misunderstanding or fuck up with the printing company. Shit happens. Pity, but no reason not to get this compilation.

Chaos Cascade - Melodies of Misogyny (tape, Obsessive Fundamental Realism): Even more in the Industrial Power Electronics style, vocals are still recognisable. Very good tape! I think not all of the releases he did when switching from Bestial/War/Grind... to full on PE/Noise were equally strong, but this tape is recommended.

Torturing Nurse - Futile (tape, Obsessive Fundamental Realism): Since the OFR label master talked me into getting his full batch, I got this that I might have skipped otherwise. I remember TN being around forever (that I ever since I got into noise some 12 or so years ago) and I heard some tracks here and there and thought some of it was good, but other stuff not so much. I also remember they seemd to have releases every other month, which for me is always a good way to loose my interest, can't bring myself to search for the good stuff in such a big discography... Anyway, this tape presents some pretty good Harsh Noise, after first listen I thought the A-side is better than the B-side. Most remarkable moment is on the A-side when the noise stops for a short while and there's a scream. I somehow thought this would be repeated a couple of times, but no.

Kadaver - Hypothermiasma (tape, Fall of Nature): another act which has been around as long as I can remember. First release I get from him after all these years, aside from the appearance on the Manifestations on the Road to Death compilation. This is a quite mixed release, some tracks more Harsh Noise, some more atmospheric stuff, one track that's more Industrial/Power Electronics, but quite annoying. Doesn't feel like an album. A bit on edge on whether I should keep this or not. I like having a release from such a long running act and it's not bad overall, but I also feel like chance of me really wanting to play it again is small.

Subklinik - Monotheistic Entrance of Seclusion (tape, Fall of Nature): Monotonous Death Industrial. Somewhere between atmospheric and a tad boring...
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« Reply #7913 on: May 14, 2020, 06:16:14 PM »

Masonna - Hyper Chaotic CD - V. Records 1996 - I'm not an expert on Masonna compare to some, I've only got 5 of the '90s albums and that big 'ol Urashima box. Unrelated, but worth noting, this is one of only 3 releases on Andrew WK's short lived label which also released a 7" by Hellchild (!!!) and a 7" by Aube. How's that for some noise trivia?

Ok so I recently listened to Frequency LSD which I adore and spent a lot of last summer listening to the other Masonna stuff I own. But damn if this isn't one of the most all out bat-shit and intense Masonna records I have. The sound isn't quite as "organic" as earlier works but it's also more varied than alot of 1996 and later stuff I've heard. and it's fucking LOUD. my ears were ringing after listening to it on headphones last night. relentless screams, hard pans, distortion blasts, signal drops, sampler (?) abuse, delay (?) abuse. Hell half the time I can barely identify what he's doing to get the sounds I'm hearing. and by the time you have a grip it's six segments later or a whole new track. And somehow, I guess due to an insane level of editing, each little song/track feels independent. This isn't one where it feels like one track cut into 20 or 30 segments. Every single goddamn track has its moment to shine. Damn good stuff, damn good! I got my copy for $15 maybe but I would have paid $25. I will say that the graphic design for the cover is fucking hideous but it actually somehow works with the color palette of the sounds of the album, if that makes sense. The rest of the design is distinctly '90s, but in such a way I get nostalgia enjoyment out of it.
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« Reply #7914 on: May 14, 2020, 10:51:41 PM »

this is one of only 3 releases on Andrew WK's short lived label which also released a 7" by Hellchild (!!!) and a 7" by Aube

Further noise trivia: the notes on Aube’s Sensorial Inducement LP include this: “Fuck & No-Thanks To Andrew Wilkes-Krier”.
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« Reply #7915 on: May 16, 2020, 09:51:28 PM »

V/A - Elite Live Stockholm April 2008 Tape
I've owned this probably since when it was released. A simple zipbag with a folded A4, and two cassettes inside. The cassettes were taped together with their bottom ends against each other until yesterday, when I finally cut them apart to start listening. They both contain the same concert, recorded by different means, and the acts involved are Cock Tribe, Treriksröset, Sewer Election, Ochu and Alfarmania. The first tape was recorded with some type of dictaphone ("portable cassette recorder", says the note on the cover) and the second is possibly lined from the mixer table (into a "stationary cassette deck"). The result is a sort of split, with Tape 2 offering the better, or at least way more powerful, sound, while tape 1 takes you closer to the action with drunken audience ramblings as well as that special sound quality that can only be produced by small, portable cassette recorders. Listening, it is obvious why this release was made (less obvious why it was limited to "14 elite copies", but these were the days before bandcamp and extreme limitations were still acceptable). Every set sounds fucking amazing. Treriksröset does his thing, Sewer Election sounds extremely brutal... Ochu and Cock Tribe both do something very different, but also very effective. Alfarmania is dirty AF, the broken industrial noise riddled with samples of Swedish criminals rambling about whores they hate and dead friends. My boxes of stuff deliver again. Considering I had very little money back in 2008, I can only assume people were very generous back then.

SLOGUN - Nothing. Ever. CD
This album from last year had passed me by somehow. Whatever, now I have it. In one way, this could be seen as classic Slogun, but it's easier to just say it isn't. The unbridled aggression of Let Me Show You How or Tearing Up Your Plans is not there anymore/at the moment. Rather, there's a kind of depressive, dirty sadness. Often we descend into expressive, melodic territories, even if it's the most broken and bleak melodies imaginable. The vocals are not as energetic-aggressive as Slogun fans may be used to. Rather, the verbal performance sounds frustrated, hateful and a tad whiny. The lyrical content is similarly authentic; while the basic message being put forth here ("Nothing you do will ever matter. Nothing. Ever.") could be ridiculed or criticized from any number of perspectives, it is still a solid aesthetic choice and carries over well in the tracks. The actual sound here is fucking great, and even if Slogun is usually great car stereo music, I recommend the headphones for this one. All sounds seem carefully selected in some unfathomable process of curation before being assembled into a monstrosity, before being crowned with bitter shouts of a voice that oscillates between sounding like a murderous incel and like the impersonated woman Anarcho-Syndicalist from "Monthy Python and the Quest for the Holy Grail".  Since I don't care much for serial killers, Slogun has always been my Metallica to a Guns and Roses-fan, but he does create som great fucking power electronics. This time perhaps more than ever: "Enough with the bullshit, enough with the lies. You don't deserve a thing - none of us do."
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« Reply #7916 on: May 18, 2020, 02:58:25 PM »

• PGR/Thessalonians - The Concentration Of Light Prior To Combustion (C60, Banned Production, 1986)

The PGR side is a live performance divided into four parts. Black hole drone that gets heavier with each section. There's a ton of crowd noise, including the tried-and-true shouts of "Freebird!!".
The Thessalonians side fits nicely somewhere between Blowhole's free improvisatory leanings and Big City Orchestra's unidentifiable looping sub bass excursions.
Bizarre, elaborate packaging from Banned involving duct tape & aquarium gravel.

• Merzbow - Flare Gun (LP, Ten Bob Swerver, 1994)

Released by the strange and mysterious UK label Ten Bob Swerver, whose only other release was a Blowhole LP (where weren't they in the 90's?).
If it weren't for Hannover Interruption existing, this would be my favourite thing Merzbow recorded in any capacity (though I do think it's his/their best work). This is peak mid-90's power-trio Merz in full force (well, the b-side is anyway). Bara conjures up his best corpsebelch vocals and towards the end of the record Reiko delivers some of the most feral, ear-splitting banshee screams ever committed to tape (that totally overpower everything else in the mix).
I finally managed to track down an affordable copy of this, and it just happens to be in perfect condition. Fuck yeah.

• Crawl Unit - Tucson Mon Amour (7", Drone Records, 2000)

Originally released in 1998.
Prime-era CU in full force. Heavy on the natural reverb. Massive rumbling with roomtone pinging. Completely disorienting.

• K2/RLW - Noise Tournament Vol. 3 (7", Kinky Musik Institute/Banned Production, 1995)

The hidden gem of the Noise Tournament series. Chopped baritone vocals and organ meet typical K2 metal indecency. Not as sparse as the R&G collab, but close.
If you haven't copped any of the 7"s from this series, you're blowing it. Everything great about 90's noise encapsulated.
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« Reply #7917 on: May 18, 2020, 10:26:53 PM »

Various ‎– Syndrom - Sin #6
Some Asian Female Body Builders - nice droning tones and sharp frequencies that fade in and out at a good pace
Toni Kandelin - pretty uneventful but nothing distasteful
OMS NMA - similar to Toni but, better.
Guttural Stap-on - This is the good stuff, I also know the project from the excellent 3-way split including gelsomina/perkust and outermost. Sort of like if macronympha really calmed down and made something more 'ambient,' relatively. strong bass and static dynamic noise.

Dub of Macronympha 1999Cdr
Mo*te presumably reworking Macronympha, but not much information is given, being that the packaging is a feminine pad and a sticker. It is very good as you might expect.

Mother Savage- Big Bang Drum Theory
Nice to have something more rhythmic to listen to every-once-in a while, but still noise. basically if scrap metal sessions of macronympha were just drawn out for an entire tape - and then you get some poorly mixed in vocals that stand out and are awkward- in a good way.

Rudolf Eb.er - 4 4 4 4
some of the best Rudolf Eb.er i have heard. It has alot more texture and constantly remains really dark and not so much cartoony or aktionist


« Last Edit: May 18, 2020, 10:30:29 PM by Strangecross » Logged
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« Reply #7918 on: May 19, 2020, 05:54:47 PM »

Paranoid Time - Pinched Sack 2xCS (Skeleton Dust Recordings)

Wow.

These tapes have some of the loudest dubs I've ever heard.  Complete overload (them being dubbed on type IV's is a plus).  Sound-wise, it's 00's HNW that's a pretty good snapshot of what American artists of this variety were up to during that time.  This stands out a little more for me, aside from the volume, the heavy tape saturation and bass frequencies make this more enjoyable than other recordings in a similar vein.  Props to the release also being a double c20.  Just enough time to enter the void without getting stuck in a purgatory of nothingness.

Recommended to those with a hefty subwoofer or headphones.
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« Reply #7919 on: May 19, 2020, 07:27:49 PM »

Paranoid Time - Pinched Sack 2xCS (Skeleton Dust Recordings)
 type IV's is a plus
They're on ferric tape. I can see how the shells might lure you to think metal though. Either way, knockout stuff, I love Pinched Sack as well.
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