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Author Topic: SLAVOJ ZIZEK  (Read 21528 times)
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ProzacPatrol
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« Reply #30 on: September 23, 2016, 10:12:04 PM »

Hegel is definitely on my list. Reading around I noticed Bataille attended all of Alexandre Kojève's lectures on Hegel for enlightenment. Kojève's lectures were compiled in the book "Introduction to the Reading of Hegel". I will probably follow that up with "Hegel: A Guide for the Perplexed" and then actually read The Phenomenology of Spirit. If anyone is looking to sift over his works all online databases like Wikipedia are pretty shit. The Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy has a great page.  http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/hegel/#SubObjSpi
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AdamLehrerImageMaker
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« Reply #31 on: March 07, 2022, 05:11:24 PM »

I've lost all faith in Zizek during the Covid crisis. He used to take reliably hardline stances that were courageous and earned him obscene levels of derision from Western liberal media. I was very happy when, in 2016, he endorsed Donald Trump as the lesser of two evils against Hilary Clinton. He was right, of course.

But Since Covid has started, Zizek has loudly cheered on all the insane measures that were taken. He started espousing a fundamentally false belief that Covid would stress the mode of production enough that the ruling class would have no choice but to start redistributing its wealth. That never happened. Instead, Covid was incessantly fear mongered and used to justify the largest erosion of civil liberties regarding speech, expression, and labor in modern history. When Covid proved itself to be infinitely less dangerous than was initially warned about, Zizek doubled down in his stance.
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« Reply #32 on: March 07, 2022, 05:50:05 PM »

He started espousing a fundamentally false belief that Covid would stress the mode of production enough that the ruling class would have no choice but to start redistributing its wealth.

Deep down he is just a Marxist (i.e. wrong), I guess.
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FreakAnimalFinland
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« Reply #33 on: March 08, 2022, 09:18:28 AM »

Deep down

Deep down? haha..  If that traditionally means something that is kind of hidden from outsiders...

There is couple of books in Finnish. Zizek visited Finland in past, but is not widely familiar with society or history of country. I recall watching some interview with him, where he would turn down opportunity to reply about some questions, since he did not have the knowledge to really analyze it. This was interesting, since especially in times like this, everybody is expert in everything - and to recognize a bit of intellect, may be exactly moment when someone concludes something in lines of "can't comment on that, don't know enough of it".

When he was in Finland, he did compare societies to great artists, who develop creativity, that goes into very specific peak point, and when it reaches that, there is nothing new to offer. Of course this, could be perhaps asked does this apply to Zizek as artists? As he sometimes comes up as spoken word artist, with specific style and method. We know what he does, and what can be expected. What is the NEW thing in his book, that come out basically annually?

But Since Covid has started, Zizek has loudly cheered on all the insane measures that were taken. He started espousing a fundamentally false belief that Covid would stress the mode of production enough that the ruling class would have no choice but to start redistributing its wealth. That never happened. Instead, Covid was incessantly fear mongered and used to justify the largest erosion of civil liberties regarding speech, expression, and labor in modern history. When Covid proved itself to be infinitely less dangerous than was initially warned about, Zizek doubled down in his stance.

Regardless of how one feels about the restrictions, covid was amazing example, how a lot of things, what were considered impossible to do, were done. In moment when impossible comes possible, no wonder there would be agenda to push.
Like right now, I doubt anyone would be praising what's going on in east-europe. However, since it is happening and will effect great deal of things most people have taken as granted, unwilling for change, unwilling to even consider options. Now, that the shock is there, and suddenly it is necessary to re-organize energy, defense, logistics, etc etc. We may be looking at things, that were formerly both unthinkable, and undoable, but suddenly is revealed that can, will and must be done.

One can look covid restrictions and other things as bleak dystopian development, but there is also other angle. Showing that things can be done, when there is motivation for it. If we have seen that business as usual, is what causes the problems and for long time, nation states seemed stagnant and impotent to do anything about it. I ain't saying what has been done, is good, but I say it has proven, that things can be done. Unthinkable and unrealistic is option when one just considers that there may be other ways than is currently going on. Putting those questions back on table, when the society is aimlessly messing around with no relevant direction or ideal.
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« Reply #34 on: March 08, 2022, 04:23:51 PM »

Agree with all this Mikko, for sure. Covid was a particularly surreal manufactured crisis.
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« Reply #35 on: March 08, 2022, 07:27:53 PM »

Deep down

Deep down? haha..  If that traditionally means something that is kind of hidden from outsiders...


Yes, haha.  I was joking, of course - what I was trying to get across is that despite any pretensions to be something more/different from/beyond traditional Marxism, he still is one at the core.  (Which is probably painfully obvious! - I only know him from memes!)
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« Reply #36 on: March 09, 2022, 03:45:27 AM »

Deep down

Deep down? haha..  If that traditionally means something that is kind of hidden from outsiders...


Yes, haha.  I was joking, of course - what I was trying to get across is that despite any pretensions to be something more/different from/beyond traditional Marxism, he still is one at the core.  (Which is probably painfully obvious! - I only know him from memes!)

libtards gonna libtard, for sure... i learned a lot from him over the years but left academics always disappoint, at some point.
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« Reply #37 on: March 09, 2022, 05:58:00 AM »

Deep down

Deep down? haha..  If that traditionally means something that is kind of hidden from outsiders...


Yes, haha.  I was joking, of course - what I was trying to get across is that despite any pretensions to be something more/different from/beyond traditional Marxism, he still is one at the core.  (Which is probably painfully obvious! - I only know him from memes!)

libtards gonna libtard, for sure... i learned a lot from him over the years but left academics always disappoint, at some point.

Yes, they all tend to end up with the same conclusions after a while.  Still, he seems important/interesting enough - any particular book by him that is worth checking out first?
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« Reply #38 on: March 09, 2022, 09:12:59 AM »

What is the same conclusion?

I mean, Zizek is self proclaimed stalinist. Which of course, is a bit joke, but in other hand, isn't. His critic for liberal west is often furious. His stand against "sjw types", liberals, overservations of gender politics, immigration, and so on, has shocked many left leaning people probably as much as the "crypto-endorsement" of Trump. His anti-moralist stance is often in such radical opposition to contemporary left, I do wonder what is "same conclusion"?

I'd say you can't understand Zizek from "memes". It would be pointless to discuss about his philosophy or ideas based on memes. But it is almost as easy to get the real deal. There is TONS of lectures of his online. He talks the same things he puts into books, but added neurotic stand up comedy type of angle keeps it both funny, and often enlightening. Same for interviews. Go to youtube, write Zizek, and you'll find months worth of lectures and interviews.

Like the hated and praised superstar Jordan Peterson was in many occasions in their debate, made such a fool by Zizek. While Peterson fairly casually manages to deal with any feminist critic, there are occasions when Zizeks observations render him speechless.

Popularity of Zizek is probably because of using popular culture examples as means of explanation of ideas, vastly more people get it, as opposed to be dry academic jargon focusing on difficult terminology.

I am sure, it is most of all the terminology, that renders most of political discussion obsolete. Especially between americans and european. Political system and terms have so different meaning, plus the societies are so different that what appears as pure communism in eyes of many americans, over here, is not.

As example, lets say suggestion of rich needing to start distribute their wealth for sake of not as much about social justice, but for sake of stability of society so they can keep their riches. Simple things, like free or affordable healthcare for citizen, funded by taxation of those who have money (meaning pretty much everybody, yet over here also progressive tax meaning rich pay more, unless they make some arrangements...). It is selfish move from rich really. If lower classes have enough to get by and life satisfactory lives, the rich do not need to live imprisoned in their gated mansions, with bodyguards.

There was newish' stand up comedy by american black comedian. One of his jokes about covid was, that blacks been asking restorations for long long time. Always been concluded that there is no money. Covid happens, and suddenly money is given out, billions and billions, like they say over there..  He was amazed. There is money, but we are not given. He suggested very luring transaction. As distribution of wealth, all they want, is free healthcare. In return, whites can call them niggers.

American audience laughed. I don't know if the Finns looking at it from TV laughed or did they ask themselves... didn't we already fill our part of this deal.. so....? ;)

So, if one like the jokes, combined with politics & philopsophy, Zizek is your guy to go to. Regardless if you are left & right. I would assume, if one get "pissed off" or "annoyed" about someone having different idea, maybe the philosophy ain't the area where one should focus.
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« Reply #39 on: March 09, 2022, 06:33:37 PM »

What is the same conclusion?

I mean, Zizek is self proclaimed stalinist. Which of course, is a bit joke, but in other hand, isn't. His critic for liberal west is often furious. His stand against "sjw types", liberals, overservations of gender politics, immigration, and so on, has shocked many left leaning people probably as much as the "crypto-endorsement" of Trump. His anti-moralist stance is often in such radical opposition to contemporary left, I do wonder what is "same conclusion"?

I'd say you can't understand Zizek from "memes". It would be pointless to discuss about his philosophy or ideas based on memes. But it is almost as easy to get the real deal. There is TONS of lectures of his online. He talks the same things he puts into books, but added neurotic stand up comedy type of angle keeps it both funny, and often enlightening. Same for interviews. Go to youtube, write Zizek, and you'll find months worth of lectures and interviews.

Like the hated and praised superstar Jordan Peterson was in many occasions in their debate, made such a fool by Zizek. While Peterson fairly casually manages to deal with any feminist critic, there are occasions when Zizeks observations render him speechless.

Popularity of Zizek is probably because of using popular culture examples as means of explanation of ideas, vastly more people get it, as opposed to be dry academic jargon focusing on difficult terminology.

I am sure, it is most of all the terminology, that renders most of political discussion obsolete. Especially between americans and european. Political system and terms have so different meaning, plus the societies are so different that what appears as pure communism in eyes of many americans, over here, is not.

As example, lets say suggestion of rich needing to start distribute their wealth for sake of not as much about social justice, but for sake of stability of society so they can keep their riches. Simple things, like free or affordable healthcare for citizen, funded by taxation of those who have money (meaning pretty much everybody, yet over here also progressive tax meaning rich pay more, unless they make some arrangements...). It is selfish move from rich really. If lower classes have enough to get by and life satisfactory lives, the rich do not need to live imprisoned in their gated mansions, with bodyguards.

There was newish' stand up comedy by american black comedian. One of his jokes about covid was, that blacks been asking restorations for long long time. Always been concluded that there is no money. Covid happens, and suddenly money is given out, billions and billions, like they say over there..  He was amazed. There is money, but we are not given. He suggested very luring transaction. As distribution of wealth, all they want, is free healthcare. In return, whites can call them niggers.

American audience laughed. I don't know if the Finns looking at it from TV laughed or did they ask themselves... didn't we already fill our part of this deal.. so....? ;)

So, if one like the jokes, combined with politics & philopsophy, Zizek is your guy to go to. Regardless if you are left & right. I would assume, if one get "pissed off" or "annoyed" about someone having different idea, maybe the philosophy ain't the area where one should focus.


My second comment was directed against liberal academics in general rather than Zizek - the people whose conclusions almost always end up with some uncritical combination of racism/capitalism/colonialism/patriarchy being the root of all problems.

From my limited understanding, though, he views the "SJW issues" as all being misunderstandings of (or developments from) the fundamental problem, which is global capitalism?  (In the sense that racial issues can all be reduced down to labor dynamics, for instance.)

The interesting thing about memes, for me, though is that while they do not allow you to understand the man himself, they do give you a good idea of what people think of him.  And one thing that I have gotten from them, is that many tend to emphasize the image of Zizek as a provocateur.  Based on what has been said above, it sounds like that he is, at his core, more of a traditional Marxist - hence my initial confusion/joke about him.
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AdamLehrerImageMaker
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« Reply #40 on: March 09, 2022, 11:00:18 PM »

What is the same conclusion?

I mean, Zizek is self proclaimed stalinist. Which of course, is a bit joke, but in other hand, isn't. His critic for liberal west is often furious. His stand against "sjw types", liberals, overservations of gender politics, immigration, and so on, has shocked many left leaning people probably as much as the "crypto-endorsement" of Trump. His anti-moralist stance is often in such radical opposition to contemporary left, I do wonder what is "same conclusion"?

I'd say you can't understand Zizek from "memes". It would be pointless to discuss about his philosophy or ideas based on memes. But it is almost as easy to get the real deal. There is TONS of lectures of his online. He talks the same things he puts into books, but added neurotic stand up comedy type of angle keeps it both funny, and often enlightening. Same for interviews. Go to youtube, write Zizek, and you'll find months worth of lectures and interviews.

Like the hated and praised superstar Jordan Peterson was in many occasions in their debate, made such a fool by Zizek. While Peterson fairly casually manages to deal with any feminist critic, there are occasions when Zizeks observations render him speechless.

Popularity of Zizek is probably because of using popular culture examples as means of explanation of ideas, vastly more people get it, as opposed to be dry academic jargon focusing on difficult terminology.

I am sure, it is most of all the terminology, that renders most of political discussion obsolete. Especially between americans and european. Political system and terms have so different meaning, plus the societies are so different that what appears as pure communism in eyes of many americans, over here, is not.

As example, lets say suggestion of rich needing to start distribute their wealth for sake of not as much about social justice, but for sake of stability of society so they can keep their riches. Simple things, like free or affordable healthcare for citizen, funded by taxation of those who have money (meaning pretty much everybody, yet over here also progressive tax meaning rich pay more, unless they make some arrangements...). It is selfish move from rich really. If lower classes have enough to get by and life satisfactory lives, the rich do not need to live imprisoned in their gated mansions, with bodyguards.

There was newish' stand up comedy by american black comedian. One of his jokes about covid was, that blacks been asking restorations for long long time. Always been concluded that there is no money. Covid happens, and suddenly money is given out, billions and billions, like they say over there..  He was amazed. There is money, but we are not given. He suggested very luring transaction. As distribution of wealth, all they want, is free healthcare. In return, whites can call them niggers.

American audience laughed. I don't know if the Finns looking at it from TV laughed or did they ask themselves... didn't we already fill our part of this deal.. so....? ;)

So, if one like the jokes, combined with politics & philopsophy, Zizek is your guy to go to. Regardless if you are left & right. I would assume, if one get "pissed off" or "annoyed" about someone having different idea, maybe the philosophy ain't the area where one should focus.


Like I said, I loved and still love a lot of Zizek's books. The Sublime Object of Ideology and the Parallax View especially are books that I have read multiple times and tried to extrapolate as much insight as possible from.

My disappointment in Zizek will not take away from the knowledge his writing has imbued in me. My disappointment merely stems from the fact that, for the vast majority of his career, he was known for taking principled, hardline Marxist stances that put him at odds with the clowns that compose the western left. Especially on issues related to gender and political correctness. But reading his stuff about Covid has really blown me away, even now that the virus has shown itself to have a mortality rate under .9 percent, he has refused to adjust his viewpoint on the thing. Because of that, he's now become a regular figure in the whole infrastructure of the leftist infotainment sphere, it just all seems very much unlike him. Here is an article where they are celebrating Zizek for having been "tamed" by Covid.

I'm probably projecting to a degree, given the admiration I had for Zizek for so long. It's just a bummer when thinkers that you've come to associate with principled free thought start eating the mainstream propaganda lines.

But who knows? Perhaps he'll write a book that floors me in the way that Parallax View did, and I'll be a fan again.
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AdamLehrerImageMaker
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« Reply #41 on: March 09, 2022, 11:01:08 PM »

Deep down

Deep down? haha..  If that traditionally means something that is kind of hidden from outsiders...


Yes, haha.  I was joking, of course - what I was trying to get across is that despite any pretensions to be something more/different from/beyond traditional Marxism, he still is one at the core.  (Which is probably painfully obvious! - I only know him from memes!)

libtards gonna libtard, for sure... i learned a lot from him over the years but left academics always disappoint, at some point.

Yes, they all tend to end up with the same conclusions after a while.  Still, he seems important/interesting enough - any particular book by him that is worth checking out first?

Yeah, Sublime Object of Ideology and Parallax View. Those are the ones I've gotten the most out of.
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Balor/SS1535
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« Reply #42 on: March 10, 2022, 02:50:58 AM »

Deep down

Deep down? haha..  If that traditionally means something that is kind of hidden from outsiders...


Yes, haha.  I was joking, of course - what I was trying to get across is that despite any pretensions to be something more/different from/beyond traditional Marxism, he still is one at the core.  (Which is probably painfully obvious! - I only know him from memes!)

libtards gonna libtard, for sure... i learned a lot from him over the years but left academics always disappoint, at some point.

Yes, they all tend to end up with the same conclusions after a while.  Still, he seems important/interesting enough - any particular book by him that is worth checking out first?

Yeah, Sublime Object of Ideology and Parallax View. Those are the ones I've gotten the most out of.

Sounds good.  I have read the early Marx, but not any of the more developed theory (yet I still have a shelf of books on Marxism...).  It sounds like Zizek will be an interesting place to begin catching up on what I have missed.
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