Marking Your Own/Surrounding Person/Territory In Culture (MYOPIC to MYSTIC)

Started by theotherjohn, September 27, 2020, 07:05:38 PM

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Zeno Marx

I've never taken anything from a release and put it up in a public space.  I used to not think about it at all and decorate my skateboards with the stickers.  Clear grip tape was a discovery (didn't have all the grip options they did later on).  I love patches, but I mostly just collect them in a bag.  Favorites that I've managed to buy a 2nd copy from the label or band get swapped on/off on a baseball cap that I very rarely wear.  Same hat has some pins that I also swap in and out.  Promo stickers, which I prefer because they're mostly a no-brainer to use, end up on my bicycle frame.  You would get more of an idea of what I like from my bicycle than from anything I wear.

I didn't know this until last week, but I guess Japanese vinyl pressings were once notorious for including a full insert of stickers.  They were usually used, so it's rare to find them still in the album.

We were big on making our own stencils.  For a while there, every T-shirt I owned had the Corrosion of Conformity skull spraypainted on the back.  Venom logo on everything.  Spraypainting our own shirts.  Punk bands carrying around a logo stencil and spraypainting basements or T-shirts for fans rather than selling screened shirts.  I'd have to give this some more thought, but I don't think I've ever seen a stencil provided in an album or as a promotional item.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

W.K.

If you start a graffiti project about harsh noise you will get $100 from me. Decent graffiti work of course.
Straight murkin' riddim blud, absolute vile gash

theotherjohn

Appreciate all the replies so far, very interesting. Seems like noise merchandise from the few examples given is something to wear temporarily when the mood or moment arises (a badge or a tote bag), rather than to be worn or shown off in all moments of day-to-day life? More transient than permanent, at least for some of us older enjoyers of noise who perhaps came to it after enjoying other more dominant activities or subcultures (skateboarding, biking, other music cultures). So if there is indeed a noise culture centred around forms of merchandise, then it's a relatively minor one that piggybacks or leeches from existing predominant cultures. And doesn't really do much else with it to make it its own culture. I see that as a shortcoming - either noise just hasn't found, adopted or developed an item or icon truly unique to this culture, or given its all/none encompassing nature it rejects such material artefacts? I'm shooting the shit here so don't take my word for the gospel truth, and I'm working with limited data and demographics (namely what replies I've got so far, and my imagination).

So if we're to get away from merchandise temporarily, how about other forms of culture that extend within noise? Probably the two most dominant cultures in mainstream music stem from rock music and rap music, both of which have specific forms of lifestyle within them that generally separates one from the other; be it in language/slang, recreational or sporting activities, clothing or dress sense, visual art preferences, gangs or criminal activities, politics etc. I could also discuss socio-personal attributes like age, race or the social class of their fans and followers, but given that truly all walks of life around the world apparently enjoy rock and rap, then I don't necessarily see that as so relevant beyond their origin stories - rap and rock over the course of a few decades have transcended to the MYTHIC/MYSTIC stages that I first suggested, whilst noise still lingers in the MYOPIC/MYOTIC stages. Could noise as a standalone culture (if it truly exists as separate to other established ones) ever occupy similar ambitions or possibilities in the world? I don't see noise having established a verbal/visual slang or language that separates us from other music cultures. We have no sign of the horns or West Side hand gestures. We don't wall of death or breakdance at shows. We don't have biker gangs or car hydraulics. We don't set fire to churches or graffiti bomb subway trains. Hell, we don't even have a preferred drug or drink choice (if we did, noise would almost certainly establish a more dedicated following!). Has noise as a culture somehow missed the boat then, if it ever really had a chance to set sail beyond this small island we occupy? I don't think the off-putting nature of noise as a musical type itself is entirely to be blamed - we can all agree there are more off-putting "musics" out there with an immeasurably more popular/wider hold on the world's population.

So the question then is, what went wrong in noise? Or if you want to be more optimistic, what could go right to make it bigger and better, if that is indeed a goal to achieve? Because the music itself apparently doesn't seem to be making progress alone, and selling a few t-shirts and hoodies in addition to our limited tapes won't cut it either in the bigger picture.

holy ghost

"Diversity Our Strength" is the motto of my hometown. And much like the majestic city of Toronto, noise seems to benefit from being a cross section of freaks rather than some kind of unified "scene" with identifiers.... I think the most common thing noise people have in common is the use of the Ariel Black font....

I don't think of it as a true "outsider" culture but noise seems to be the most "diverse" scene (not like actually diverse, it's still mostly white men) but you don't need to conform to being a certain "look" or "thought process" and that's good. I think this was pointed out by someone else here but it's rare that noise becomes the main focus at a young age and people tend to age into it after tiring of metal or punk or they keep their feet in multiple pies.... which is another appeal of it, you can expect noise people to be more aware of other connective scenes rather than hyper focused on their own micro niche scene..... maybe I'm wrong? I don't live in America..... What do I know? I guess what I'm saying is nothing is "wrong" with things within noise?

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: holy ghost on September 30, 2020, 04:45:42 PM
I don't think of it as a true "outsider" culture but noise seems to be the most "diverse" scene (not like actually diverse, it's still mostly white men) but you don't need to conform to being a certain "look" or "thought process" and that's good.

Good point.  Unlike black metal, noise does not have any equivalent to "kvlt" or "trve" that is used to hammer others who have different opinions or interests.  It seems to me that many people in noise simply gravitate to those they find most interesting, and just ignore those they do not like without feeling the need to criticize.  But, then again, maybe that is just my view as someone who did not get into the scene until after HNW became established.

JLIAT

With the greatest respect to all that is being said could I suggest that to compare 'noise' (PE  and industrial for that matter) to main stream popular music might be an unhelpful comparison. Rock, Pop, Punk and Rap, were and in some cases still are massively popular especially to youth, adolescent youth, white adolescent youth at that. It "markets" a particular zeitgeist, which appeals to certain audiences... And I say 'marketed' e.g. recently Rob Halford admits  " despite knowing he was gay aged 10, he didn't come out until 36  " for fear of the damage to JPs sales / fanbase. The origins of Noise, (and PE / Industrial) is very different, never intended as being aimed at a mass market, or being particularly popular. Bennett for instance claims 'musical' influence was Yoko Ono, his philosophical De Sade...  others "I threw all my past music career in the garbage. There was no longer any need for concepts like 'career' and 'skill'. I stopped playing music and went in search of an alternative...." or Sam Mckinley's interest in minimal art and the work of Richard Long.  My point is that whilst rock, pop may be 'serious' it does target specific audiences which I think Noise / Industrial / PE never did. Bennett is open about his targeting, and it was not it seems to be popular. So maybe the 'merch' thing isn't that important to / in  Noise / Industrial / PE...(or can be a kind of parody of the mainstream... mass merchandizing)  but the sound is, "no longer any need for concepts like 'career' and 'skill'"... and even more radically..."All of this was never about listening, it almost says." (referring to TNB). Might I offer then this idea that noise because of its focus will never attain mass appeal, but that doesn't mean it cant be very significant... but more then akin in comparison to Wandelweiser or free Jazz... but more radical..."All of this was never about listening, it almost says."

Finally this other element of Noise, that it can be seen to be a parody of mainstream music. One in which lack of skill, lack of sales, lack of audiences,  of "labels" not being anything like Sony, or Virgin... but a DIY label operating from a bedroom and making small edition cassettes  with Xeroxed inserts. Not like The  Sex Pistols managed by Malcolm McLaren, signed to EMI - and Virgin = and platinum sales!!!

Noise, making, listening, the irrational response to an inescapable nihilistic consumerist world. A reversal of ALL its values...

holy ghost

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on September 30, 2020, 07:13:08 PMUnlike black metal, noise does not have any equivalent to "kvlt" or "trve" that is used to hammer others who have different opinions or interests. 

Well I wouldn't go THAT far. Definitely some noise punishers out there!! However the noise edgelords seem a lot less laughable than the trve black metal kvlt bro's.

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: holy ghost on October 01, 2020, 12:26:29 AM
Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on September 30, 2020, 07:13:08 PMUnlike black metal, noise does not have any equivalent to "kvlt" or "trve" that is used to hammer others who have different opinions or interests. 

Well I wouldn't go THAT far. Definitely some noise punishers out there!! However the noise edgelords seem a lot less laughable than the trve black metal kvlt bro's.

Probably true, as I have a rather limited perspective on the noise scene in comparison with my interaction with bm fans.  Maybe it's the willingness of noise to engage with controversial subject matter, as, despite the few gatekeepers that I have come across, there seems to be a lot more tolerance in the community.

However, I am only involved online - which likely means only exposure to the best and worse the respective scenes have to offer.

Theodore

Quote from: theotherjohn on September 30, 2020, 03:24:42 PM
So the question then is, what went wrong in noise? Or if you want to be more optimistic, what could go right to make it bigger and better, if that is indeed a goal to achieve?

IMO make it bigger is something that should be avoided, and noise has perfectly succeeded in this. Wherever 'lifestyle' and bigger 'masses' are included / attracted , things turn to shit ! - Noise is a genre you have to discover on your own, either by luck, either by a friend, cause you are interested, not by following a mass which will happen if it becomes bigger, hype, lifestyle. - I guess that's why many people discover noise older, but also that's why most of them STAY , and keep their individuality.
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

Andrew McIntosh

I don't doubt that in parts of the world where there are reasonable scenes of people into this kind of thing, that is people who meet up on a regular basis for gigs and so forth, that a kind of uniform look, attitude, language, etc begins to form. It's a bit human nature. I expect these things to have some similarities between each other, but also regional differences.

There would definitely be crossover with other scenes, though. Since Noise tends to be something of a minority taste, it would rely more on connections with Metal, hardcore, etc scenes on the one hand, and "sound art" scenes on the other. While it's not unknown for people to straddle both poles, there are distinct differences there. But, for the most part, Noise as a scene-in-itself tends to be spread across other scenes. At least, that's been my experience.

In any case, with situations like this, there'll be those who opt for as much identifying inclusion as possible, and those who will just "be themselves" regardless. It depends on how seriously individuals take this scene business.

Personally I don't see it as any loss that Noise isn't some bigger identified distinct cultural phenomena in the way theotherjohn describes, but I don't see it as an issue if that did happen. If we take modern Noise scenes as having started in the 1980's, though (I know, sound-wise, it's antecedents are longer than that), it's been something like four decades we've been able to get by without hand-signs, slang, dance-moves, fashion and all the rest of it. There could be something unique in that, in itself.

On this forum, there's been discussion of things like a Noise "brotherhood", or "the PE lifestyle" and so on. People do like to have these kind off tribal identities. The thing with that is that, with most other popular music genres, they're pushed by consumerism, which is why people outside of those scenes latch onto various indicators like clothing and so forth. So far, Noise, as is, lacks commercial appeal, which is something else pretty unique for something that's been around for so long. What major label is going to sign up Hijokaidan or Bizarre Uproar and market them to young consumers around the world as the next big thing? For me, one of the great things about Noise is that it's almost impossible to water it down without losing its essence. If there was a distinct image, that might be co-opted. But with fourty to fifty minutes of pure screaming harsh sound, the only way you could make that palatable would be to put a dance beat on it, making it therefore extraneous to the dance beat. It's brilliant that Noise can work that way - it has to stand on its own, or it just becomes mere decoration.

If theotherjohn is saying "he music itself apparently doesn't seem to be making progress alone", I have to ask in what way that is a negative thing for those of us who dig Noise?
Shikata ga nai.

holy ghost

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on October 01, 2020, 08:16:26 AM
There would definitely be crossover with other scenes, though. Since Noise tends to be something of a minority taste, it would rely more on connections with Metal, hardcore, etc scenes on the one hand, and "sound art" scenes on the other. While it's not unknown for people to straddle both poles, there are distinct differences there. But, for the most part, Noise as a scene-in-itself tends to be spread across other scenes. At least, that's been my experience.

I recall seeing Sunn O))) in a church in 2006 or so and there was a definite vibe of "crossover" there - dudes in patched denim meeting with up the sound art people backed with the casual onlookers who'd read about it in one of the free weekly papers and had no real clue about either scene. I never caught Wolf Eyes back then but I'm sure the sub pop meets harsh noise bro must have been the same vibes. It wasn't bad vibes by any means but I also recall the great blog explosion (and Aquarius records reviews as well as places like Mimarogulu) of the early 2000's and many people (myself included) losing focus on specific things and just getting turned on to everything and anything. Of course you also had purists from every scene doubling down on their specific niche interest in response to that. Remember the "true doom" purists and the powerviolence elitists? I guess we call them punishers now....

I would like to think the hardcore scene of the 90's was a little more tolerant of "weird shit" with MITB, Gasp, Suppression, Brutal Truth.... The Locust etc....

Zeno Marx

When things head in the direction of economics and further reach/bigger presence, though I believe the intent was to discuss the development of noise culture outside of those things, I'm always taken back to the rather heated argument on the ol' Tumorlist, propelled by its moderator Phil Easter (Stone Glass Steel, Iron Halo Device, Malignant Records graphic designer).  He REALLY pushed for noise/industrial culture to make it big, like Graeme Revell.  To cash in on the skill and craftsmanship and value of this music, but it was significantly based on the artists getting paid what he felt they deserved.  So everyone could make a living...a good living...which could only be a positive thing in his eyes, that they could dedicate more time, with better equipment and means, to their art.  That "selling out" doesn't necessarily have to be a negative thing.  To bring greater attention, thus greater rewards, to this culture didn't necessarily have to be a negative thing.  I hope I'm remembering his argument accurately.  No intention here of misrepresenting his perspective.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

theotherjohn

I'm all for noise becoming bigger than it is, even if it results in "selling out" or some resulting commercialisation. There seemed to be promise with Merzbow or Whitehouse gaining some wider distribution (here in the UK you'd occasionally find their CDs in the major record chain HMV, although Merzbow was often stuck in the metal or electronic sections) or even with Wolf Eyes and Prurient crossing over to bigger labels. Or maybe even All Tomorrow's Parties, Adult Swim or Red Bull Music Academy lightly dipping their toes in, for better or worse. But I still see noise stuck in the ghetto, so to speak.

Perhaps if large musical equipment manufacturers were willing to sponsor/supply "professional" noise makers with gear like they do electronic music artists or rock musicians, artists might have a fighting chance to showcase what noise can/could be to the wider world? You would think the instrument builders would be happy to see more artists willing to push the sonic limits and capabilities of their equipment beyond 4/4 beats (conversely, maybe if noise equipment makers approached more mainstream musicians to shill their gear, there would be a similar effect? See the impact of streetwear fashion for example). Or what if in addition to noise festivals, you also had more industry-based (but not "industrial"-based!) noise conventions, tourist trips or even award ceremonies? They've done wonders for previously sordid/uncool cultures like porn, anime, videogames and comic books. Recognise and reward your history and heritage, whilst influencing and inspiring the next generations. Obviously there's downsides to noise potentially being a multi-million dollar industry of course (fame, excess, rabid fanbases) but these ventures could just be the sort of thing to notch noise up a step.

Alternatively, to sidestep the fame and fortune sides of this speculative future and approach noise more organically or communally, I would also welcome more noise shows/demonstrations breaking down the performer/audience divide. Noise is usually more fun to perform than to solely listen to, and when newcomers get a sense of how sounds are made, then they gain more appreciation for it. If everyone in the audience was supplied with the same rudimentary equipment (household, found or otherwise disposable objects) and given a script/score of sorts to follow and build from, noise could become much more interesting. But we're still stuck in a stale theatre tradition when you see many noise shows (and usually in traditional venues no less). I welcome more street actions, block parties and sound system parades for the celebration of noise, where all potential generations and backgrounds can get involved. Spanish speaking communities are especially encouraging of this, especially if pyrotechnics are involved.

Again, I'll state that I'm just playing devil's advocate here and having fun with these future noise fantasies which may or may not be entirely original, realistic, or even particularly well thought out...

Andrew McIntosh

The question still remains - in what way has Noise missed out on not having any of that conventional stuff? What negative thing is happening in that Noise doesn't have awards nights or endorsement deals? It exists. People are still playing live, recording, touring even. Whatever balance of events that have occurred so far seem to have served Noise quite well. Does Noise really need all that extra stuff?

Making a living is not the same thing as "selling out", as I see it. I would suppose Masami Akita would be the closest to actually paying bills from his live gigs and album sales. There could well be one or two more. But we all know the lack of probability with it. If Noise was something that had more potential for more people to make a living from it, it would be happening now. Perhaps people who have listened to Noise for a long time forget just how bizarre and unlistenable it is to people who have had no exposure to it. To get someone else to even sit with a recording for more than a couple of minutes is an achievement in itself, as far as I've seen. For the most part, it is the substance of Noise that either appeals or appals.

Other music genres have the conventions of at least being instantly recognisable as music, because they invariably have the standard elements of rhythm, chords, melodies, and so on. Noise does not - that's a lot of its point. Some examples may well have compositional qualities, but that's an appeal for people who are more used to it. There'd be no point playing a Noise recording to a random group of people not used to Noise and try to win them over by saying "actually, a lot of work went into this".

That Noise remains an outlier in the wider world of music is, at least to me, a great part of its attraction, but I can understand why people wouldn't care for that part of it. What I can't understand is why anyone would feel the need to change it. It isn't broken.
Shikata ga nai.

Theodore

I think what also makes noise so interesting is that artists do what they like, not what audience wants. It's passion, not job. When artist starts making a living from his output, and gets used to it, then it becomes a job, naturally, and the creation proccess is diluted -at least- , and it becomes obvious on the result . - Will i sell ? What my customers like ?

I know, we all accuse others for "selling out" easily. Cause we hadnt have the chance we to sell out yet, maybe. Anything. We havent seen the money yet. And we will never see it probably. Cause most of us have nothing to sell. It's easy to hold your values and work when there is noone interested to buy them ! - The proper question when talking about sell out is ... For how much ? Then we can talk. It was worthy or not ?
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"