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Author Topic: BLACK METAL  (Read 116078 times)
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Andrew McIntosh
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« Reply #15 on: June 14, 2016, 03:05:30 PM »

surely nature/death/human instinct/strength of spirit and will are at the heart of Black Metal?

A strain of it, I'm afraid. I can leave it. Let Death swallow nature, human instinct, strength of spirit and the rest of it. It will anyway. Might as well praise it.
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« Reply #16 on: June 14, 2016, 03:21:42 PM »


Mysticum, the band that literally founded industrial-black metal as a sub-subgenre


Actually Maschinenzimmer 412 claimed this already 1995 on their In Nomine dei Nostri CD (1995 on CMI)
Since i like the whole Mysticum Stuff a Lot, it isn't too much "Industrial", mostly uses Techno Music Influences instead of Industrial / Noise Elements.

I think Ildjarn fits as Merge between Black Metal and Noise.
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« Reply #17 on: June 14, 2016, 04:45:47 PM »

I don't think that one can codify black metal as a one simple ideology. Even the early 90s norwegian scenes bands seemingly had all different take on the subject, with euronomoys even publically supporting communism (well, at least the totalitarian form of stalin, pol pot and others).

As for the subject of drum machines, I'd agree that they should be major thematic element in the music, where they actually support the music and aren't simply cheap replacement for real drummer. In general, I cannot stand when any form of rock or metal sounds too well played, stable or over-produced. Worst of course are djent where the drummer sounds exactly like a drum machine, at which point I ask myself, why the fuck bother except for the bragging rights? To me the lofi, less technical material is much more preferable, where bands like vetala, black cilice and others have given the goods in recent years. To me those are much more succesfull at being noise/black metal than any half-assed attempt at forcing the two together. In general, I myself find the studio produced, shiny, colour painted cover artwork black metal about as abhorrent thing that one can get and in a way, complete antithesis to me what black metal is and was.
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« Reply #18 on: June 14, 2016, 10:33:17 PM »


Mysticum, the band that literally founded industrial-black metal as a sub-subgenre


Actually Maschinenzimmer 412 claimed this already 1995 on their In Nomine dei Nostri CD (1995 on CMI)
Since i like the whole Mysticum Stuff a Lot, it isn't too much "Industrial", mostly uses Techno Music Influences instead of Industrial / Noise Elements.

I think Ildjarn fits as Merge between Black Metal and Noise.

I stand corrected, you are right sir. I forgot they had the self described "Swedish Black Industrial" tag, even written on the spine of most of the albums, and In Nomine dei Nostri came out a year before In the Streams.

I think maybe that's where there is a descrepancy here a bit, I think there is a vast difference between most Industrial Black Metal like Mysticum and Diabolicum who use the techno music influences whereas you have bands like Gonkulator, Black Mass of Absu, Flooded Church of Asmodeus, the Bizarre Uproar/RfR split, Ritual Violence and Ride for Revenge by themselves that I think actually blend blend noise and black metal perfectly and none of these bands give me a Marilyn Manson, mallgothy Matrix vibe like most modern industrial does.

Mikko is definitely the man to do the Ramleh/Darkthrone blend if anyone is...
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Yrjö-Koskinen
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« Reply #19 on: June 14, 2016, 10:41:41 PM »

80's black metal has a few good songs? Being too true in the 90's to listen to King Diamond?! Yikes....
[..]
Nothing personal at all, but this has to be one of the most silly and shallow assessments of black metal I've ever heard. Agreed that most black metal is silly but when I read this I actually laughed.

To quote another black metal, or black something, musician, Sizzla: Nah apologize!

Don't like the 80s stuff, never did. Originally because it felt like rockstar/shock rock and lacked ideology, now probably more because I never got into it, and hence have no nostalgic feelings for it. The fact that I listened only to black metal (+ the usual range of Cold Meat, ambient and side project industrial stuff that was deemed ok for some reason) during part of my teens is a little difficult to grasp for me as well, but I'm sure I had perfectly legitimate reasons.

I had no intention to assess black metal as a genre, just give two major examples of forms of it that I enjoy/do not enjoy. I've been into the genre for a bit more than 20 years, for a brief but formative period absurdly so, so I get to say whatever stupid things I want. On a less bantering note, I could develop both statements and make them a bit less "shallow," but I think perhaps the thread has moved on?

Regarding Mysticum/MZ-412 I would like to remind you that the Wintermass demo was released in 1993. What that means for Mysticum's status as subgenre founders I don't know, but soundwise it's pretty close to In the streams..., only rawer. Judge for yourselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxE8cwCCab8
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Punainen Graniitti

Tumsas māte, miglas māte līgo, līgo,
Aiz ezera velējāsi līgo.
Dun bauzīte, čukst vālīte līgo, līgo,
Ievelk mani niedrājāi līgo.
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« Reply #20 on: June 14, 2016, 10:54:12 PM »

80's black metal has a few good songs? Being too true in the 90's to listen to King Diamond?! Yikes....
[..]
Nothing personal at all, but this has to be one of the most silly and shallow assessments of black metal I've ever heard. Agreed that most black metal is silly but when I read this I actually laughed.

To quote another black metal, or black something, musician, Sizzla: Nah apologize!

Don't like the 80s stuff, never did. Originally because it felt like rockstar/shock rock and lacked ideology, now probably more because I never got into it, and hence have no nostalgic feelings for it. The fact that I listened only to black metal (+ the usual range of Cold Meat, ambient and side project industrial stuff that was deemed ok for some reason) during part of my teens is a little difficult to grasp for me as well, but I'm sure I had perfectly legitimate reasons.

I had no intention to assess black metal as a genre, just give two major examples of forms of it that I enjoy/do not enjoy. I've been into the genre for a bit more than 20 years, for a brief but formative period absurdly so, so I get to say whatever stupid things I want. On a less bantering note, I could develop both statements and make them a bit less "shallow," but I think perhaps the thread has moved on?

Regarding Mysticum/MZ-412 I would like to remind you that the Wintermass demo was released in 1993. What that means for Mysticum's status as subgenre founders I don't know, but soundwise it's pretty close to In the streams..., only rawer. Judge for yourselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxE8cwCCab8

HA! So maybe I was right, odd as I thought I remember all the Mysticum demos were recorded with an ACTUAL drummer but this proves that incorrect as that is definitely a drum machine there.

Also I know your comments were not a grand assessment of the genre as a whole, you can still say whatever stupid things you want no matter how long you've been listening to any genre I'd like to think, or I don't mind anyway haha, I just kind of get a kick some times out of how people deduce or describe all these different styles, aesthetics, 'trends' or whatever you want to call them or even the black metal genre as a whole. "Suburban White Kid's Version of Gangster  Rap" was one of the most memorable and amusing descriptions I've heard from someone in regard to the genre.

Thread seems to have moved on indeed so I'll shut up now.
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« Reply #21 on: June 14, 2016, 10:57:36 PM »

And I'm being facetious here so don't take me too seriously but...how can you be into 90's black metal but not be into Bathory at least!??!
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Yrjö-Koskinen
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« Reply #22 on: June 14, 2016, 11:08:14 PM »

And I'm being facetious here so don't take me too seriously but...how can you be into 90's black metal but not be into Bathory at least!??!
In the case of Bathory it's more a pure case of just never getting into it - me and my very suburban crew of gangsters didn't really care about the older generation of "metalheads", so we missed Bathory in the process and didn't really check it out until it was a bit late. I do like it when I hear it, though, so I guess my attempt to be cool and dismiss all 80s BM just turned out to be largely empty bluster. A far more intense fact: I didn't actually hear De Mysteriis Dom Sathanas until about 2002, or perhaps even later! Why that was, I really don't know, since it was released right when I was getting heavily into the genre.
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Punainen Graniitti

Tumsas māte, miglas māte līgo, līgo,
Aiz ezera velējāsi līgo.
Dun bauzīte, čukst vālīte līgo, līgo,
Ievelk mani niedrājāi līgo.
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« Reply #23 on: June 15, 2016, 09:54:10 AM »

I have grown up with early BM and proto BM (hellhammer, celtic frost, venom, bathory, coroner, poison (the German ones), mayhem, etc.) I was lucky enough to witness most of them live back in the days and they definitely delivered the good, both aesthetically and musically. there was a strong punk attitude, but in black.

Bathory wrote the template of what was turned perfect by Scandinavian project a decade later. But as usual, tastes are individual.
For example, I have been in love with Mayhem since Deathcrush, but did not enjoy Attila's voice on "De mysteris" (yet a classic album, with perfect sounds). I have never been too keen on many other big names (Most satyricon, Immortal and Ulver never did for me).
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Andrew McIntosh
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« Reply #24 on: June 15, 2016, 02:39:55 PM »

Interesting, Marco, I was listening to "De Mysteriis" just the other day and thinking the same thing about Attila's vocals. The man just tries too hard. Musically, though, that album in untouchable. Definite Death Metal roots but with that right touch of darkness and innovation that spawned the Norwegian plague.

I grew up buying a lot of those Bathory and Celtic Frost albums when they were coming out so with complete bias I'd point to those two bands in particular as shaping the classic BM sound. Funny thing is, Quorthon hated Celtic Frost and Hellhammer, but at the time everyone fucking hated Hellhammer, it was the thing to do. The number of zines I read that name-checked Hellhammer as the byword in bad production and crap music. Stupid cunts. Anyway, those first three Bathory albums laid down the fucking law. Couldn't believe it when he started wanting to be Manowar instead of wanting to be Venom (for all his crap in interviews there is no way Bathory was not inspired by Venom. I recall in an interview in "Kerrang" he refused point blank to talk about Venom. This was after the "Under The Sign..." album).

Still, I can relate to someone who doesn't relate to those bands. I got into Metal via Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. At no stage have I ever given a fuck about Deep Purple or Led Zepplin or any of that "proto-metal" crap with the exception of Black Sabbath, who it took me a while to get anyway. Maybe some of those earlier rocknroll bands I can appreciate now but I don't think everyone has to trace their lineage back to fucking Bill Haley and the rest to appreciate what's being released now.
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Goat93
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« Reply #25 on: June 15, 2016, 08:53:40 PM »

Regarding Mysticum/MZ-412 I would like to remind you that the Wintermass demo was released in 1993. What that means for Mysticum's status as subgenre founders I don't know, but soundwise it's pretty close to In the streams..., only rawer. Judge for yourselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxE8cwCCab8

Yeah and Mz released first Album 1989, but i talk about the Subgenre "Industrial Black Metal", the Moniker came up with Mz412, when they make a real Crossover with Dark Funeral ( In Nomine Album). In truth, there were several Bands who sounds "Noisy" or "Industrial" all the Time, since the Black Metal Wave starts. Remember Impaled Nazarene uses already in 1993 Industrial Cyber SadoMaso Punk as Moniker. Beherit, Bestial Summoning, Profanatica/Havohej, Ildjarn....


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LIFE
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« Reply #26 on: June 15, 2016, 10:42:43 PM »

Is somebody going to create powerful music when they're more concerned with how the keyboards reflect some kind of superficial message? Probably not. It might not even be unique. You look at some of the iconoclasts of black metal or really any style of music and they were able to completely redefine the boundaries of the genre with the same tools as everybody else, and they were able to innovate while staying "pure".

As far as digital and inhuman elements go, you can listen at the Graveland "In the Glare..." demo and it's some of the best primitive metal ever made, yet I found out many years later that all of the keyboards were recorded using an old Amiga computer. So here early 90s Graveland is thought of as definitive "organic" black metal, yet they used a computer. And then you turn around and there are bands who created very clear, artificial sounding recordings who probably didn't use any computers.

At the end of the day it's the character of the music that defines it, not what is used to make it.
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« Reply #27 on: June 16, 2016, 12:11:53 AM »

Quorthon always seemed like a prissy bitch to me, I love Bathory, the first five albums are some of my favorite music ever, but it's pretty funny to read how uptight he used to get in old interviews when Celtic Frost or especially Venom were brought up. I love the infamous story of Dead meeting him and being utterly dismayed at how much of a 'normal' and boring guy he was. Apparently Dead also left a demo of December Moon with a crucified rat in the Black Mark office and was told to permanently stay the fuck away after that haha. Or who could forget Tom G. Warrior and his anti-Hellhammer rants about how embarassed he was by it etc. etc. and then years later, "I'll write an entire book about Hellhammer now since everyone has decided my music didn't suck when I was a 16 year old virgin!". Fuck off you drama queen. At least the book was good.

Some of you are very lucky to have grown up during these bands being in their prime, I was a little kid in the 80's.

Amiga or not, In the Glare of Burning Churches sounds like it was recorded in another world and that's all that matters. The drumming literally sounds like pagan war drums.

Also on the recently created official Vordb page where Wlad from Vlad Tepes often posts, both (supposedly it's them at least) admitted to using computer effects or some PC effects on some of the old LLN experimental recordings even and that is some of the most underground, unique and atmospheric music ever created.

Like LIFE said, it's all just a means to an end, essence over form.
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Andrew McIntosh
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« Reply #28 on: June 16, 2016, 04:20:27 AM »

In fact I have a lot of respect for the zero tolerance Black Metal purists. I think it's great that there are people out there who just don't want any additional bullshit to their favourite music and are so aggressive about it. Mainly because I hate the Pitchfork/Quietus/etc. cunts who only review BM albums if they don't sound like BM. The kind of people who wank about "progression" and "innovation", as if those things are essential to everything you're meant to listen to. For me, it's a breath of stale air that there are those who want to keep things pure and unchanged.

If it comes down to a choice between some young, pretty hipster who's band "sort of started off as Black Metal but we think we're going beyond that", and some grimly corpse-painted intolerant fucker in a forest saying "kill everything for Satan!", I know who's flag I'd rather fight under. But outside of that choice, I'll fly and fight under my own.
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« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2016, 10:15:09 AM »

Interesting, Marco, I was listening to "De Mysteriis" just the other day and thinking the same thing about Attila's vocals. The man just tries too hard. Musically, though, that album in untouchable. Definite Death Metal roots but with that right touch of darkness and innovation that spawned the Norwegian plague.

I grew up buying a lot of those Bathory and Celtic Frost albums when they were coming out so with complete bias I'd point to those two bands in particular as shaping the classic BM sound. Funny thing is, Quorthon hated Celtic Frost and Hellhammer, but at the time everyone fucking hated Hellhammer, it was the thing to do. The number of zines I read that name-checked Hellhammer as the byword in bad production and crap music. Stupid cunts. Anyway, those first three Bathory albums laid down the fucking law. Couldn't believe it when he started wanting to be Manowar instead of wanting to be Venom (for all his crap in interviews there is no way Bathory was not inspired by Venom. I recall in an interview in "Kerrang" he refused point blank to talk about Venom. This was after the "Under The Sign..." album).

Still, I can relate to someone who doesn't relate to those bands. I got into Metal via Iron Maiden and Judas Priest. At no stage have I ever given a fuck about Deep Purple or Led Zepplin or any of that "proto-metal" crap with the exception of Black Sabbath, who it took me a while to get anyway. Maybe some of those earlier rocknroll bands I can appreciate now but I don't think everyone has to trace their lineage back to fucking Bill Haley and the rest to appreciate what's being released now.

you somehow described my ,life history eheh

hellhammer/celtic frost where big here, also due to geographic reasons. the way they shaped their sound/aesthetic left a big mark on everybody.
we often traveled at Martin Ain's shop in Zurich where you could get lots of underground stuff, etc.
I loved bathory in any of their incarnation (although my fave is Under the sign... that put the template of things to come).
I have strong respect for Attila, Tormentor's demo were classic in tape trading, but in de mysteris had somehow a weird tone, especially considering I knew those songs from Dead's version, which was just perfection. But I still consider that a milestone with some of the best riffing ever.

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