Ethics among underground

[Andrew McIntosh]

Actualy a lot of People really need this kind of Collecting to break even with their releases. The Idiotism to spend insane Money for "rare" Stuff holds many Scenes together and help to survive in the First place. Even selling old Tapes for insane Prices. I know a lot of Sellers, who finance their Label with "rare" Stuff, when the normal Stuff won't sell good.

Good grief, has it really come to that?

[accidental]

Also notion of "original" is quite shady...//

I guess this refers more to behavior, like certain newer Aussie label auctioning freshly dubbed tapes as rare originals to finance some drug use, right? That type of thing seems rip off, but there is huge grey area of old tapes where you can't quite set any rules what really is the original tape, is method of distribution was different and there was no specific edition that is "limited to XXX" from one manufacturer.

Agree with basically everything you wrote including the grey area of what's an original and so on.

Let me repeat myself though. These releases has not been made on demand throughout the years. They have been unavailable from label for 20+ years. Rarely if ever available on second hand market. Most of them are not numbered, but done limited during the 90s. All are said to be leftover copies. Which absolutely could be the case. Only a few of them are in high demand. The others not likely to sell fast at prices asked.

We are talking about two handful of releases. I have bought three and passed on another after receiving pictures of it and receiving the first three i ordered. Of the three i suspect one to actually be an original. For the others, the cassettes used etc make me highly doubt they are leftovers. So not going to name label. Benefit of a doubt. But clues can be picked up from my posts to make people ask questions before placing an order. The one i passed on is the only one with several recorded sales at discogs. And it's still available. It's also the one which would carry the least doubts of not being an original.

If i should speculate i think one leftover copy/release was found and oppertunity was taken to make a few more. I would not compare this at all with the label from down under. Though maybe i'm missing the similarty? Does anything on that label generate above stock price? If i'm not mistaken by who you're referring to, those titles seems to have been made more 'in demand' kind of style even though a first edition is often described.

[theotherjohn]

You bought some tapes, you received something suspect, you questioned the seller about their legitimacy and they told you otherwise but you're still feeling burned - yet rather than fully discussing the matter directly with the person in hand and getting things worked out, you have to dilly-dally about it on here in vague terms? I can't see this problem being resolved between us helpless few, and the questions of ethics in underground business or whatever is redundant. Hell, maybe you should have asked more questions prior to buying them, or maybe you misread a listing description and you actually got what you paid for? It's hard to say as we're only going by what you've said, and we still don't know what mysterious label you're talking about to make a rational opinion on the matter. So really, you've got two options: either move on (shit happens, get over it), or get the matter resolved properly. If it's still not amicably dealt with - a refund, a return, whatever - spread the word about what they're doing and name them to dissuade others from hopefully falling foul of the issue.

A question for you: do you plan to buy from the same seller again in the future, knowing you may get a similar bum deal? That's a good starting point as to whether you are happy with their service or not.

[chryptusrecords]

weird to me that people are surprised by standard market activities. oh you get ripped off? labels save stock to sell later after hype builds up? this is the fault of the second-hand collector market in both cases. why are old noise tapes worth so much? why are people incentivized to rip off the scene, whether it's thru false originals, scam projects, or hacking social media accounts? it's all money. if we want deregulation and underground then there are no rules, caveat emptor. otherwise we create systems of 'secure transaction' and become businesses. which is better?

edit: we want "originals" because we want a connection to the artist and the time and place of the thing's creation. it links us to them directly. we dont want "products." we don't want "services." we want experience.

edit2: but let's assume we can't go backwards. how do we maintain real experience when the scene becomes so heavily commodified? when we simultaneously demand easy access and also "authenticity?" we rely on the same big centralized tech platforms as everyone else. 

[Goat93]

Actualy a lot of People really need this kind of Collecting to break even with their releases. The Idiotism to spend insane Money for "rare" Stuff holds many Scenes together and help to survive in the First place. Even selling old Tapes for insane Prices. I know a lot of Sellers, who finance their Label with "rare" Stuff, when the normal Stuff won't sell good.

Good grief, has it really come to that?

Yes, mostly i have seen this in HipHop and Metal Scenes. In Metal is easiest to see the behaviour with selling different Versions of the Same Music in the First Place.

craziest i have ever seen were some Metal releases as "Limited Exclusive Ebay Editions" directly from the Label, next to the limited Edition and the standart edition.

[nusjut]

...way too many tiny, often obvious aspects to discuss - "high pricing to scare off flipsters" is a tricky one BTW - but when talking about selling/buying pricy vintage tapes to me all comes down to A: the price asked for, and B: a honest description of the actual items for sale, especially if these differ from the often generic discogs listings/pics (= date, (missing) tapelabels/booklets, tape brand, paper, printing technique). One should ask for pics of the actual tape for sale, if 'old and pricy'.

His should be a reasonable way to sell up to 40 years old out of 'print' tape releases in 2022 to tape collectors not just interested in the sounds (in most cases available for free as unpersonal files somewhere online), but with some sense for tape culture/cassettes as audio format/the handmade diy object: https://www.discogs.com/de/seller/Robert_Cox/profile If he'd ask 30-60 each without any explanation - with computer printed shiny pixelated J-cards (?) - it wouldn't.

"CON-DOM": whether early or late copies, always a honest tape sold by the artist for cheap money as long as the project existed,
(I don't know if MD dubbed them himself on demand), but definitely with that important personal touch (in his case the tiny etched side indicators),
spread in amounts that should put off scammers and overpricing in general for ages; collectors will detect the more exciting earlier ones worth paying a bit more as distributed by allied forces (Zeal, Open Wound etc.) with different artwork/presentation and other "network" aspects involved; same goes for "AWB": the (UK) copies got more style, especially the sneaky "unofficial bootlegs" :)

[Theodore]

Or Sound Of Pig. From time to time he makes new dubs, reasonably priced, as new tapes. Or https://www.discogs.com/label/1547932-GearsSex , till some months ago he was selling them for 7 -he doesnt sell them anymore i see- , and was very kind to provide me info when i asked him , some are dubbed years ago , some more recent, covers+labels from the old unused stock. Nothing to complain about with these guys !

So price is the key when there is no transparency. And almost always when there is transparency, price is as it should. If you sell new dubs as 30YO tape at collector price, and you dont mention the fact that is a new fresh tape, that's misleading and scam ! That goes for second-hand sellers as well. For example if you intent to sell a 2020 Nails Ov Christ SOP tape for 50, you better mention it, and after you mention it sell it as much you want. I bet you know noone will buy it for 50, so i guess you will set a fitting price instead. But even an insane price on a product with accurate description would still be honest, insane but honest.

[SU]

Hello

Don't really contribute to any online forums, but just wanted to pipe in here as I was made aware that my name ( or, at least, initials ) cropped up in the conversation.
Just to clarify the collection I'm selling online is mine and I am not copying cassettes or making dodgy bootlegs, etc. I wouldn't be so bold as to create new editions of any artists work. I don't even own a cassette deck anymore.
Sure there's a few people on here who have picked up items from me over the last few months without any issues.
Finally - re; high prices. Yea, so what. I've pumped thousands of pounds into records, events, etc over the years so now I'm gonna claw some back. I've a retirement to enjoy ! Also, all prices are open to discussion.

Cheers,

S.U.

Quick addition ; Maybe the original poster could clarify the label / artist / whatever that he is discussing so it stops others pointing at or suspecting others...

[accidental]

yet rather than fully discussing the matter directly with the person in hand and getting things worked out, you have to dilly-dally about it on here in vague terms? I can't see this problem being resolved between us helpless few,

Maybe i wasn't clear enough in my original post? I'm not looking for your or anyone elses advice on how to deal with or resolve my purchase. I know what was sold, paid for and what was received etc.

What i wanted to hear was others opinion on label printing up new copies of limited cassettes sold out 20+ years ago. Selling them as originals. But turns out most of them are not originals but newly made copies marketed as originals.

Many replies have dealt with this in broader terms. Talking about when something has been kept in print (on demand etc). It's worthing talking about the grey area of the term "original". But in the case i presented there is no such grey area. And that was what i wanted reactions on.

[accidental]

Hi accidental, I put my speculation/question (S.U. (from the UK, not KO again!)) hopefully as cryptic as possible, and yes, SFCR is a legend, but when ordering some rather highly priced discogs tapes from SS today, you'll get most likely a brand new copy (J-card leftover on "craft paper" + new tape w/o labels). I bought from, and talked about this with him. Just tell your facts, so others can decide for themselves and maybe avoid disappointments while saving some bucks.

I'll comment on this since i've already replied on SFCR. I didn't know who you meant by SU at first. I've bought from SU/UK with total satisfaction. I've also bought from SS in recent years and i have not experienced what you describe at all. But i'll keep what you wrote in mind when doing my next deal. My experience with both of them have been perfect and i'd be happy to deal with them again.