Special Interest
August 19, 2019, 06:24:40 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
News:
 
   Home   Help Login Register  

Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
Author Topic: Mastering Noise  (Read 17939 times)
0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.
Salamanauhat
Administrator
Heavy user
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 444


« on: July 09, 2013, 06:21:03 PM »

I guess...
L. White mastering is great, Steinklang is poor.

See the difference between L. White [up] and Steinklang [down] - track 7. Whitelines


To me the Steinklang master definitely looks better. I think that loudness and brutality definitely suffer from heavy master limiting etc.

Just a few days ago I was thinking about starting a thread about mastering techniques used in noise but didn't really come up with a good opening. What kind of techniques are used, what is the role of mastering, and so on. I'm not sure if all people do any kind of "mastering" really, but some do. Sometimes it seems just blatantly overcompressing everything, but sometimes more adventurous techniques can be tailored for specific pieces. Personally, I think proper mastering is basically some kind of art form in itself, and find the philosophy and practice of it very fascinating.

So what do you think, and what kind of techniques have you devised? How big is its role and what are you after?
Logged
Zeno Marx
Diehard user
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1296



« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2013, 06:36:53 PM »

Personally, I think proper mastering is basically some kind of art form in itself, and find the philosophy and practice of it very fascinating.
It indeed is, but it can also be adequately performed as a craft.  What I mean is that a very few do turn it into an art, but it can also be served well like a decently skilled mason can build a solid brick home or a basic woodworker can build a good quality cabinet.  We'd all prefer to use and buy from the artist, but they're in high demand and have limited time.

The problem in 2013 is that we are down to a few artisans, and then it drops off considerably in the craft realm.  The craft sector has been replaced by automated cutting processes and younger ears that are accustomed, and directed to, compression, clipping, loudness, etc.  There's very little middle-ground anymore.  If you cannot afford and get in with the likes of George Horn, for instance, you're pretty much screwed if you want top shelf mastering, and even he makes mistakes and can do poor work; that artisan variable.
Logged

"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.
Dr Alex
Diehard user
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 726



« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 07:32:08 PM »

Maybe it looks better but sounds so poor.
I will put both for download later so you can notice the difference.
Logged

online prowler
Diehard user
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1463



WWW
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 08:14:10 PM »

Interesting thread, thanx. Will follow this. Personally I don't have a lot of experience in this field, but I find it highly interesting and an important part in the process towards the artistic expression one have in mind. One cannot deny it. Craftsmanship and consistency are important in all chains of the production.
Logged
HongKongGoolagong
Diehard user
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 751


WWW
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 08:27:44 PM »

It's important I think to get your masters done to your own satisfaction then request 'flat mastering' from your pressing plant without any extra automated compression or equalisation which may flatten out dynamic range.

Of course noise has different rules from much music. Technically something like Merzbow's infamously loud 'Pulse Demon' might be 'brickwalled' but it still sounds amazing.
Logged
Dr Alex
Diehard user
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 726



« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2013, 12:24:20 AM »

I checked Jérôme Nougaillon's re-mastering for Genocide Organ - Remember and it's 'brickwalled' as you call it but still one of best re-mastering.

Here you can find both version of Sektion B - Whitelines
http://www.sendspace.com/file/lxjbk4
Let me know which one you find better.
L. White track sounds as original, Steinklang track sounds poor.
Logged

Andrew McIntosh
Overkill user
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 2003



« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2013, 01:55:25 AM »

For one thing, basing on how something sounds based on how its wave file looks isn't going to help. Adobe Audtion, for example, can "zoom out" on waves that look totally hot until there is some distinction.

It would also depend on how digital everything is. Don't Macronympha tapes have everything pushed into the red, yet, given their style and the format, people tend to say that works? There might be those who disagree. But in any case, it's a possible example of how, with Noise, turning all knobs to the right is sometimes just the most desirable thing to do.

Going by the download provided, what you've got there, I would suggest, are two totally different versions of the same piece, and hardly comparable. The vocal performances certainly sound different. For mine, the Steinklang version has a nice, gutter-sounding feel that I would prefer, as well as a bit more modulation and variation, while the L-White version just seems indifferent (going for that "cold" sound a lot of people like with their PE, I suppose). Don't care much for the vocals overall, though.
Logged

"Unless suffering is the direct and immediate object of life, our existence must entirely fail of its aim." - Schopenhauer.
Zeno Marx
Diehard user
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 1296



« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 02:44:21 AM »

It's pointless to be looking at, or comparatively listening to, MP3s.  I'd request them ripped directly from the CDrs to wav and then not labeled other than 1 and 2.

And this is another modern problem with mastering.  I've heard, and read, of "studio" schools working with MP3s as valid tools.  It implies that people who are about to be the professionals in this industry are sold on MP3s being harmless  and good working master files.  I assume it stems from the bullshit they fed all of us long ago that 192 is CD quality.  Yeah, I really want these types working anywhere near the music I value.
Logged

"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.
FreakAnimalFinland
MODERATOR
Administrator
Overkill user
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 4104



WWW
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2013, 08:48:07 AM »

It would also depend on how digital everything is. Don't Macronympha tapes have everything pushed into the red, yet, given their style and the format, people tend to say that works? There might be those who disagree. But in any case, it's a possible example of how, with Noise, turning all knobs to the right is sometimes just the most desirable thing to do.

Yep, but there is certainly difference in pushing to maximum limits in various formats or methods.
Macronympha case, as far as I know, has been analogue tape master pushed to maximum. This differs quite a lot from digital "hard clip" mastering. Certainly many do admire the crisp ultimate distortion of digital hard clip where there practically is no more "sound wave", but pure distortion. It does have some possibly good elements, like creating harmonies of sound layers. But for many people, including myself, things like dynamics and timbre are way more important than being loud and distorted.

In case of mentioned Genocide Organ remaster, it doesn't have the most amateurish "clipping at 0db all the time" brickwall so standard in noise. It is certainly compressed, but wave still includes resemblance to original signal. It's not the utmost flat cut-off at 0dB threshold. Therefore I guess, the mastering topic could be very useful. To know difference what it means to sound if you just put "all in red" from volume slide or use possibly some mastering skills beyond the "obvious".
Logged

E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net
Human Larvae
user
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 144



« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2013, 10:08:24 AM »

For one thing, basing on how something sounds based on how its wave file looks isn't going to help.

I find it very irritating how big the difference in loudness can be compared to how the waveform looks.
Grunt's "seer of decay" was always an interesting example to me.
Track1 looks well balanced out, good dynamic range, the overdriven sounds create the illusion of it being louder than it "should" be.
Then Track2 kicks in, full blast of harsh noise, sounds louder, yet there is still 0.4db headroom! Sure, heavily compressed, but not brick-walled
Track 3, ok, now we're in the red, hah.

Now I am guessing, the more layers you have in a track, the quieter each layer will become overall (not massive amounts) for it all has to fit in the limited space?
Logged

tiny_tove
Overkill user
******
Offline Offline

Posts: 2669


ELETTRONICA RADICALE EDIZIONI


WWW
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2013, 11:11:07 AM »

and I get into the geek-tech question:

your favourite mastering gear/software?
I have been using the wave bundle, but i am in no way expert of the field.
Logged

Human Larvae
user
***
Offline Offline

Posts: 144



« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2013, 11:25:22 AM »

I think one of the easiest all-in-one is Izotope Ozone
Logged

Hal Hutchinson
Guest
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 12:09:56 PM »

I think one of the easiest all-in-one is Izotope Ozone


I agree with that.It's expensive but well worth it.To be honest, I don't know if you could use it for 'real' or 'true' mastering that a proper mastering studio could provide, but to give a finishing touch to a track or to have more control over it's final outcome it's great.A good idea is to be creative with putting these final touches on your recordings and so many people use the same methods and tools to achieve 'power' in recordings.

With regard to looking at how waveforms portray different levels of compression in certain recordings, the 'sausage creature' waveform does not just occur in noise,although of course you will see if very often in the genre of course.Put a recent rock/pop album into your editor and have a look, you'll be surprised just how compressed everything in the general music marketplace is these days.I sound like a miserable old fogey but it's true.Over the last few decades levels of this kind of compression have been rising at alarming rates.I used to work as a transfer engineer putting mixes to optical film for cinema and I was always reminded of the following by a Dolby engineer : "If you want it louder - USE THE FUCKING VOLUME KNOB!!! " You would not believe how many so called 'sound engineers' this has to be explained to.


Logged
FreakAnimalFinland
MODERATOR
Administrator
Overkill user
*******
Offline Offline

Posts: 4104



WWW
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 12:31:00 PM »

I find it very irritating how big the difference in loudness can be compared to how the waveform looks.
Grunt's "seer of decay" was always an interesting example to me.

I often do mastering based on what you actually hear. Not by what the waveform looks like. As different sounds behave slightly different. Especially if one is able to remove unwanted frequencies and unwanted sound that's clouding the essence.
This leads to whole question about recording noise being much more important than mastering. If one wants sounds to be loud, it should be recorded to sound loud, not assume any sort of "boost", like additional digital distortion, will save the final master. One can get all to be "at maximum", but still it's up to the material how strong it is. Like crushing some junk metal will never be "loud" if microphones didn't capture any proper sound, but entire blown-out sound wave is humming and hissing while the intended sound of object is thin and distant.

But certainly, again, sometimes just adding one more little dose of distortion on top of everything may improve overall feel.
Logged

E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net
Dr Alex
Diehard user
*****
Offline Offline

Posts: 726



« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 12:33:57 PM »

"If you want it louder - USE THE FUCKING VOLUME KNOB!!! "

That's my way when I recording my noise. I never do any mastering.
For most noise, mastering is unnecessary. Mastering sometimes can damage raw and nature quality of noise. I like raw and loud sound!
For pe, mastering is necessary.
Logged

Pages: [1] 2 3
  Print  
 
Jump to:  


Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2015, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!
Page created in 0.165 seconds with 20 queries.