Avantgarde / transgression / industrial

[JLIAT]

This is (hopefully fairly correctly selected) posts from "Missing... but what?" -topic, that can be hard to really name. General discussion of nature of art, industrial, transgressions etc. If one is not interested, no need for name calling etc. People who find it interesting - proceed!

Yours,
Mr. moderator





The "missing" thing i've found is not just in Noise, this is Matthew Collings in his book of 1999...
there are other examples...


Matthew Collings – in "This is modern art."

" The type of Modern art that goes back to impressionism is over ... Old Modern Art used to strive not to imitate the exact surfaces of older art precisely because it believed in it. It believed in it enough to want to develop it and advance it, and developing and advancing meant not copying the surface but advancing the idea or purpose that lay beneath the surface..."

[JLIAT]

I'm not sure what the "mechanics of process which is much more complicated" means or are, or if this is relates and if so how to "individual emotional investment."

My English is poor and I use too many so called Polish-English phrases. This is, probably, one of them and you must face with this my imperfection ;)  I have meant "Mechanics of process" as something like cause and effect relationships. I consider an art (and music of course) as a part of bigger process which is stimulated at the same time inside and outside of culture. I guess that every human idea (in art, religion, politics and so on - in culture at all) is ruined in so called reality, in ordinary life.  Question is, why "idea" is ruined? Why life kills an art? Why the  man prefers easy life than pain and transgression? Such questions we can multiply, but always answer will be the same... and the same are reasons why idea and reality aren't on the same level in our material existence.

Noise/industrial as the most extreme trend in music and one of the most radical in the art is a foreign and unwanted object in human life, in a society... in a culture. The natural process is crowding-out of unwanted things/pain from a body/psyche of human, and in the culture. Noise is a pain; noise is an idea of sound which is the closest in our mind, so is the most connected to TRUE. People don't accept True, so they are rejecting this art from their life. This process of crowding-out has another face... This process converts every foreign body/idea into much more accepted shape in human's perception. And I meant just this one "much more complicated mechanics - process" which is determinded by disability of human's mind and primitive needs, and so weak culture which is human's illusion.

What is very important here. Not every enthusiast of noise/industrial is able to resist to cultural crowding-out process or converting into more accepted shape... And this is the most pessimistic in this problem.

Your english is far better than my polish /;-)

I have a problem with conflating noise with industrial, but as for being the "most extreme"... etc there certainly are other examples of this kind - the work of Sam Beckett or Otto Muhl, Nitsch, Schwarzkogler... and others ... but that again is not 'new'- these themes go back to the greek mythical plays...
via de Sade et al..

but whilst i would say there are certainly heavy elements of "unwanted things/pain from a body/psyche of human.." to be found in PE, i see Noise as differing itself from PE in these not being present. The pure abstractness of noise - for me - removes the possibility of any communication other than of noise itself. In that regard i see it as being similar to Abstract Expressionism, where human expression is no longer apparent. But this is another tangent to what is perceived as now missing. Though for me the same 'missing' is found today in contemporary art.  Hence my Collings quote. (what has replaced this sincerity is, it is said, is irony)

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I have a problem with conflating noise with industrial, but as for being the "most extreme"... etc there certainly are other examples of this kind - the work of Sam Beckett or Otto Muhl, Nitsch, Schwarzkogler... and others ... but that again is not 'new'- these themes go back to the greek mythical plays...
via de Sade et al..

but whilst i would say there are certainly heavy elements of "unwanted things/pain from a body/psyche of human.." to be found in PE, i see Noise as differing itself from PE in these not being present. The pure abstractness of noise - for me - removes the possibility of any communication other than of noise itself. In that regard i see it as being similar to Abstract Expressionism, where human expression is no longer apparent. But this is another tangent to what is perceived as now missing. Though for me the same 'missing' is found today in contemporary art.  Hence my Collings quote. (what has replaced this sincerity is, it is said, is irony)

I supposed that we came to the point where, again and again, interlocutors must explain fundamental words.
So, first of all:

"greek mythical plays... via de Sade et al.." - isn't the same like NOISE/INDUSTRIAL - noise/industrial is part of a neo-avant-garde trend and this has a family tree with historical Avant-garde so the Art which was based on anti-classical values and esthetics. Sade and the rest, who were innovators, but weren't avantgardists. It is fundamental dissonance between "classic vs. avant-garde" about that people forget in such discussion often.


PE and NOISE INDUSTRIAL has the same base - this is ONLY antimusic, noise sound,  and this is real INDUSTRIAL MUSIC, not Throbbing Gristle, CV, SPK and others which popularly are named as "industrial Music" because somebody, one of the leaders of popular band in 1976 used this term as a slogan - when PE and noise industrial hasn't existed yet. The topic demands more description, but people thoughtlessly are using some words/terms.

[JLIAT]

I supposed that we came to the point where, again and again, interlocutors must explain fundamental words.
So, first of all:

"greek mythical plays... via de Sade et al.." - isn't the same like NOISE/INDUSTRIAL - noise/industrial is part of a neo-avant-garde trend and this has a family tree with historical Avant-garde so the Art which was based on anti-classical values and esthetics. Sade and the rest, who were innovators, but weren't avantgardists. It is fundamental dissonance between "classic vs. avant-garde" about that people forget in such discussion often.


PE and NOISE INDUSTRIAL has the same base - this is ONLY antimusic, noise sound,  and this is real INDUSTRIAL MUSIC, not Throbbing Gristle, CV, SPK and others which popularly are named as "industrial Music" because somebody, one of the leaders of popular band in 1976 used this term as a slogan - when PE and noise industrial hasn't existed yet. The topic demands more description, but people thoughtlessly are using some words/terms.

I think we are not going to find agreement here, i'm using the terms 'industrial', Power Electronics', 'Noise', 'Harsh Noise', and 'Harsh Noise Wall' as they are generally defined, in many cases by the artists themselves who you seem to dismiss. (PE .. .coined by William Bennett  ...the founding of Industrial Records by members of Throbbing Gristle ... and I think Harsh noise wall by Sam MacKinley) If you check out the history of the Avant-garde you will find de Sarde quite a significant influence, unless again you dont consider what is generally to be defined as avant-garde and anti-classical – by which I take it to be 'the establishment'.  I think to avoid confusion between what you call " real INDUSTRIAL MUSIC, not Throbbing Gristle" you would be better using IMO a different label than that defined by TG. Likewise if you take 'Avant-garde' not to include Dada, Neo-Data, Fluxus, ...and "The concept of avant-garde refers primarily to artists, writers, composers and thinkers whose work is opposed to mainstream cultural values  "  I'm using the wiki page for conveniance... likewise sade - "Whitehouse emerged as earlier industrial acts such as Throbbing Gristle and SPK were pulling back from noise and extreme sounds and embracing relatively more conventional musical genres. In opposition to this trend, Whitehouse wanted to take these earlier groups' sounds and fascination with extreme subject matter even further; as referenced on the sleeve of their first LP, the group wished to "cut pure human states" and produce "the most extreme music ever recorded". In doing so, they drew inspiration from some earlier experimental musicians and artists such as Alvin Lucier, Robert Ashley, and Yoko Ono as well as writers such as Marquis de Sade."

I think it would 1) you need to identify those who you would think avant-garde / PE/Industrial, and 2)  coin new terms other than those which already have a general significance. 


I apologise in advance for using Wiki – but "thoughtlessly are using some words/terms" is not what i'm doing, merely saving space and referencing other sources.

For instance Hegarty's  Noise Music – A History...

Sade p.122 "The 150 Murderous Passions, tries to bring out the closing section of de Sade's 120 Days of Sodom"... etc.
(though I have many issues with the book, ( i'd say IMO it would be essential to anyone interested in the genre.)

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I supposed that we came to the point where, again and again, interlocutors must explain fundamental words.
So, first of all:

"greek mythical plays... via de Sade et al.." - isn't the same like NOISE/INDUSTRIAL - noise/industrial is part of a neo-avant-garde trend and this has a family tree with historical Avant-garde so the Art which was based on anti-classical values and esthetics. Sade and the rest, who were innovators, but weren't avantgardists. It is fundamental dissonance between "classic vs. avant-garde" about that people forget in such discussion often.


PE and NOISE INDUSTRIAL has the same base - this is ONLY antimusic, noise sound,  and this is real INDUSTRIAL MUSIC, not Throbbing Gristle, CV, SPK and others which popularly are named as "industrial Music" because somebody, one of the leaders of popular band in 1976 used this term as a slogan - when PE and noise industrial hasn't existed yet. The topic demands more description, but people thoughtlessly are using some words/terms.

I think we are not going to find agreement here, i'm using the terms 'industrial', Power Electronics', 'Noise', 'Harsh Noise', and 'Harsh Noise Wall' as they are generally defined, in many cases by the artists themselves who you seem to dismiss. (PE .. .coined by William Bennett  ...the founding of Industrial Records by members of Throbbing Gristle ... and I think Harsh noise wall by Sam MacKinley) If you check out the history of the Avant-garde you will find de Sarde quite a significant influence, unless again you dont consider what is generally to be defined as avant-garde and anti-classical – by which I take it to be 'the establishment'.  I think to avoid confusion between what you call " real INDUSTRIAL MUSIC, not Throbbing Gristle" you would be better using IMO a different label than that defined by TG. Likewise if you take 'Avant-garde' not to include Dada, Neo-Data, Fluxus, ...and "The concept of avant-garde refers primarily to artists, writers, composers and thinkers whose work is opposed to mainstream cultural values  "  I'm using the wiki page for conveniance... likewise sade - "Whitehouse emerged as earlier industrial acts such as Throbbing Gristle and SPK were pulling back from noise and extreme sounds and embracing relatively more conventional musical genres. In opposition to this trend, Whitehouse wanted to take these earlier groups' sounds and fascination with extreme subject matter even further; as referenced on the sleeve of their first LP, the group wished to "cut pure human states" and produce "the most extreme music ever recorded". In doing so, they drew inspiration from some earlier experimental musicians and artists such as Alvin Lucier, Robert Ashley, and Yoko Ono as well as writers such as Marquis de Sade."

I think it would 1) you need to identify those who you would think avant-garde / PE/Industrial, and 2)  coin new terms other than those which already have a general significance.  


I apologise in advance for using Wiki – but "thoughtlessly are using some words/terms" is not what i'm doing, merely saving space and referencing other sources.

For instance Hegarty's  Noise Music – A History...

Sade p.122 "The 150 Murderous Passions, tries to bring out the closing section of de Sade's 120 Days of Sodom"... etc.
(though I have many issues with the book, ( i'd say IMO it would be essential to anyone interested in the genre.)

~

First of all - if someone, for example De Sade has influence on an avant-garde artist, it doesn't make this first artist - avantgardist. I think, it is obvious.

Secondly - if anyone artist, for example Steven Stapleton, speaks that he makes surreal music, it doesn't mean that everyone must use this term. Everyone, who wants to understand the wider context of music must consider more factors than artist's imagination about himself.

Thirdly - I didn't write that " 'Avant-garde' not to include Dada, Neo-Data, Fluxus." - I don't know where from you took this assumption?

Fourthy - about terms. I showed only a need to precise what you, me or anyone else undestands these problematic terms. Problematic, because many people understand, for example "industrial" or "noise", in differant way. If people, who are using these terms in discussion don't explain what they mean, this discussion may be fruitless.

And the last but not least - I explained the basic terms in my "Encyclopaedia of Industrial Music" book... I don't demand you must know it, and you needn't demand I have to know other books or Wiki sites too. I prefer using our knowledge based on logical and rational arguments. So, if you explain me, why , for example, Throbbing Gristle should be more associated to "industrial music" (for example using five postulats of industrial music by Jon Savage), than for example - WHITEHOUSE or The NEW BLOCKADERS, using real esthethic factors, not artist's declaration, then we may continue our discussion. If not, then, in fact we will not find agreement and and rational place to share our opinions.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

what's missing is strength of character via artistic endeavors and social fluency.

This.
And more in-depth discussion and proper writing. Feels kinda sad when someone has worked hard for months or even years on an album, and the only comments the album gets are "This shit slaps", "Scorcher!", "Flame emoji" or whatever in some instagram post or on a forum board. Sure there are some rather well written reviews and (almost) articles here on this board for example, but it's mostly just spontaneous comments. There are a handful of zines, and some of them are great. But they need to be more in numbers, and they need to differ from eachother with different takes, angles, content, aesthetics (blacknwhite semi-abstract xerox art is nice, but for fucks sake...)... That's what I'm missing; more diverse writing that elevates noise just a little bit above something you indulge in to pass two hours after supper before bedtime.

I could write - do it youself! ;) Use free - blog-sites and other places... I know not everyone has got possibilities to write, not everyone can create music etc., but, if there is such possibility, why not to try? Besides, I suppose that there isn't so big need reading anything. Most of so called noise/industrial enthusiasts don't care about that.

I am working on a printed thing after a decade of just writing reviews and thoughts in my notebooks. But while that is rewarding even without an audience (yet), I need others to write more so I have something to read. For me it has always been good writing that have kept me interested and curious in the genres I'm into. Something to bounce my own thoughts and views against.

Maybe other writers are waiting for the first step by someone else? Internet makes chance for every idea, for every way of writing. For example, why don't try to persuade three or five writers and don't write three or five reviews the same record, without consultation before that?

[JLIAT]

In reply to your 5 points...

First of all -

1) It seems the term 'Avant-garde' as applied to the arts was adopted from the military around 1910, and as I said if you checkout those associated with the term de Sade is significant. Whether he can be considered avant-garde is if one wants to apply the term retrospectively. Such that Sade might be not the first but certainly  fits "The concept of avant-garde refers primarily to artists, writers, composers and thinkers whose work is opposed to mainstream cultural values" likewise Baudelaire et al. 2) Your second point seems not to be relevant, If Stapleton coined the term "Power Electronics" and it involved  pushing " these earlier groups' sounds and fascination with extreme subject matter even further" I see no good reason for saying that is just what PE is in relation to industrial. The term and PE 'music' here applies to the nature of the music he wished to produce. 3) I made no assumption of your use of Avant-garde, I said "If" and by this I referred to what I understood you claimed, that TG was not industrial, though they coined the term, likewise PE and Whitehouse. 4) I've explained fairly precisely what these terms mean in relation to their historical context. But I see a danger in using historical terms such as these in a contemporary setting. Especially if they depart from the original ideas. 5) I'm sorry I missed your Encyclopaedia, and so your "basic terms" are. What are they? I should say here that at the time and since i've no particular interest in Industrial or PE, as for me rather than being anything Avant Garde I could see it doing not much more radical than Dada / Fluxus or DIAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_in_Art_Symposium.. or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_Actionism with which I was familiar- what excited me was the difference between such performance art and the denial of creativity or critique in noise, esp. on first hearing Merzbow. Much the same for Vomir. So i'm also unfamiliar with Savages 5 postulates, but i'll try to explain why  Throbbing Gristle should be more associated to "industrial music"  than for example - WHITEHOUSE or The NEW BLOCKADERS," Firstly I think his opening remakes might give an idea of "more" ... "these were best exemplified by Throbbing Gristle in London, and Cabaret Voltaire in Sheffield ...These two, in particular, used the space offered to them to develop the ideas which I, in my purism, would prefer to call, for the sake of argument, "industrial." So the fact TG coined the term & Sage thinks they best exemplified should have some weight. That Whitehouse sort to push the industrial envelope into more non-musicality and so coined the term and the genre Power Electronics should account for why TG are better examples of Industrial. As for TNB – I think they very much see themselves as do others as Noise, not Industrial. (see ttp://www.thenewblockaders.org.uk/  and http://www.thenewblockaders.org.uk/tnbarticles.html ) But here i'd see Merzbow as being more radical. i.e. having less of an agenda. So that is why i'd see TG as better representative of Industrial than Whitehouse or TNB. As to the 5 postulates, 2 seems to rule out TNB anti anti..and again is supported by a direct reference to TG and in P1 there is an indirect reference to TG, "The choice to record for their own, or independent labels "... P3 says use of synthesises and anti music, but TNB I think used junk, and were / are famously anti anti... I think " In this, Throbbing Gristle's Second Annual Report (1977) with its reliance on synthesizers and non-musical sounds, was prototypical.  " also kind of makes TG  a bench mark for industrial, at least for Savage or anyone using his 5 postulates... yourself? And TG certainly from the get go did P4! And again TG are cited as examples of P5.

Finally much of more recent 21stC "industrial" music would fail Savge's 5 postulates.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

In reply to your 5 points...

First of all -

1) It seems the term 'Avant-garde' as applied to the arts was adopted from the military around 1910, and as I said if you checkout those associated with the term de Sade is significant. Whether he can be considered avant-garde is if one wants to apply the term retrospectively. Such that Sade might be not the first but certainly  fits "The concept of avant-garde refers primarily to artists, writers, composers and thinkers whose work is opposed to mainstream cultural values" likewise Baudelaire et al. 2) Your second point seems not to be relevant, If Stapleton coined the term "Power Electronics" and it involved  pushing " these earlier groups' sounds and fascination with extreme subject matter even further" I see no good reason for saying that is just what PE is in relation to industrial. The term and PE 'music' here applies to the nature of the music he wished to produce. 3) I made no assumption of your use of Avant-garde, I said "If" and by this I referred to what I understood you claimed, that TG was not industrial, though they coined the term, likewise PE and Whitehouse. 4) I've explained fairly precisely what these terms mean in relation to their historical context. But I see a danger in using historical terms such as these in a contemporary setting. Especially if they depart from the original ideas. 5) I'm sorry I missed your Encyclopaedia, and so your "basic terms" are. What are they? I should say here that at the time and since i've no particular interest in Industrial or PE, as for me rather than being anything Avant Garde I could see it doing not much more radical than Dada / Fluxus or DIAS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Destruction_in_Art_Symposium.. or https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viennese_Actionism with which I was familiar- what excited me was the difference between such performance art and the denial of creativity or critique in noise, esp. on first hearing Merzbow. Much the same for Vomir. So i'm also unfamiliar with Savages 5 postulates, but i'll try to explain why  Throbbing Gristle should be more associated to "industrial music"  than for example - WHITEHOUSE or The NEW BLOCKADERS," Firstly I think his opening remakes might give an idea of "more" ... "these were best exemplified by Throbbing Gristle in London, and Cabaret Voltaire in Sheffield ...These two, in particular, used the space offered to them to develop the ideas which I, in my purism, would prefer to call, for the sake of argument, "industrial." So the fact TG coined the term & Sage thinks they best exemplified should have some weight. That Whitehouse sort to push the industrial envelope into more non-musicality and so coined the term and the genre Power Electronics should account for why TG are better examples of Industrial. As for TNB – I think they very much see themselves as do others as Noise, not Industrial. (see ttp://www.thenewblockaders.org.uk/  and http://www.thenewblockaders.org.uk/tnbarticles.html ) But here i'd see Merzbow as being more radical. i.e. having less of an agenda. So that is why i'd see TG as better representative of Industrial than Whitehouse or TNB. As to the 5 postulates, 2 seems to rule out TNB anti anti..and again is supported by a direct reference to TG and in P1 there is an indirect reference to TG, "The choice to record for their own, or independent labels "... P3 says use of synthesises and anti music, but TNB I think used junk, and were / are famously anti anti... I think " In this, Throbbing Gristle's Second Annual Report (1977) with its reliance on synthesizers and non-musical sounds, was prototypical.  " also kind of makes TG  a bench mark for industrial, at least for Savage or anyone using his 5 postulates... yourself? And TG certainly from the get go did P4! And again TG are cited as examples of P5.

Finally much of more recent 21stC "industrial" music would fail Savge's 5 postulates.

"It seems the term 'Avant-garde' as applied to the arts was adopted from the military around 1910, and as I said if you checkout those associated with the term de Sade is significant. Whether he can be considered avant-garde is if one wants to apply the term retrospectively. Such that Sade might be not the first but certainly  fits "The concept of avant-garde refers primarily to artists, writers, composers and thinkers whose work is opposed to mainstream cultural values" likewise Baudelaire et al. "

Avantgarde is term and phenomena mainly in the ART and in the context of the Art we should consider this phenomena. Its importance for culture is the second question, which isn't problem for us here. So, established Avantgarde was based on esthetical fundaments, and different canon of beauty, not "cultural values". For example - Russian or Polish futurists weren't against culture values, but everyone of avantgardists was against classic canon of beauty. So, de SADE and his art/literature was based on classic paradigm of literature. Even his topics, which was shocked in his time, agree, was create in context of standard human freedom. Shocking topics don't make him avantgardist... I didn't find anywhere who saw him as such writer. It would be nonsense. His influence on some Avantgardists can not change this opinion.


"Your second point seems not to be relevant, If Stapleton coined the term "Power Electronics" and it involved  pushing " these earlier groups' sounds and fascination with extreme subject matter even further" I see no good reason for saying that is just what PE is in relation to industrial.".

You are throwing out the baby with the bathwater. I didn't mention Stapleton in case of his "power electronics", only in case of his declaration about "surrealist music" which he creates. at least he thought so, and need to question such artist's declaration because we must take bigger context than artist's imagination about himself. I haven't objection about term "power electronics". I don't want to name it as "industrial music", only show you that power electronics has more common  to "industrial music" than Throbbing Gristle, CV and SPK which are incarnation an avant-garde of rock music. In other words I could see Power Electronics (and  noise industrial, experimental postindustrial, ambient industrial) as sub-genre of Industrial Music.

" I should say here that at the time and since i've no particular interest in Industrial or PE, as for me rather than being anything Avant Garde I could see it doing not much more radical than Dada / Fluxus or DIAS"

First of all, I mentioned that "industrial music" (so power electronics and noise industrial) is trend of neo-avantgarde. Besides, it mustn't be "radical" to name it "neo-avantgarde". We are discussing about MUSIC (its esthetics) not about her out-of-musical radicalism.

"So the fact TG coined the term & Sage thinks they best exemplified should have some weight."

Not true. It was accident with coined the term. It was advertising slogan "Industrial music for industrial people" for a new label Industrial Records. Cazazza and Orridge didn't think about new genre in music. It was taken by journalists. About "industrial music" wrote already P. Schaeffer and P. Henry in the end of the 50. who described such their concrete musique.


Jon Savage even didn't mention about rock music in his postulates which were base for many people who want to see TG, SPK or CV as "industrial". These three projects are based on rock music, its avantgarde idiom, so I don't see any reason linking mentioned groups to industrial music. Industrial music must be based ONLY on ANTI-MUSIC, without any pseudo musical factors like regular rhythms or melodies, so only on NOISE, whatever it may come, from synths, broken devices, no musical objects, or traditional instruments which are used against musical formulas. This is the Industrial Music, not rockish avatgardish of punk-psychedlic-hippies who used some "antimusical" parts in their rock music formula.

[JLIAT]

"Avantgarde is term and phenomena mainly in the ART and in the context of the Art we should consider this phenomena. Its importance for culture is the second question, which isn't problem for us here."

I think you need to provide some support for this, it seems I was wrong re 1910, 1825 – Origin of the term "is usually credited to the influential thinker Henri de Saint-Simon, one of the forerunners of socialism. He believed in the social power of the arts and saw artists, alongside scientists and industrialists, as the leaders of a new society."  ..." for most of the 20th century—and the 19th as well—the term avant-garde was widely used to define attempts to forge new dimensions to our aesthetic and political definitions of reality.  "  You seem to deny this. OK have your own definition. My other "increased emphasis on aesthetic issues has continued to the present. Avant-garde today generally refers to groups of intellectuals, writers, and artists, including architects, who voice ideas and experiment with artistic approaches that challenge current cultural values." Again includes many for whom de Sade was significant.  And you see their granting him such importance not changing your opinion, which of course you are welcome to.

Re Stapleton, my mistake, it was of course Whitehouse and William Bennett  who coined the term Power Electronics, I was confused by your reference to Stapleton and Surrealism? He maybe thought his music surreal, but it seems irrelevant to the development of the sub genre PE from Industrial, to which Throbbing Gristle as Savage points out was seminal and originator of Industrial Music.  If you now reject Savages criteria and his examples and what is generally accepted, again you are welcome. (I see no evidence of TG being ' an avant-garde of rock music' deriving from COUM – Fine Art movements, Fluxus. They seem continually to be identified with the origins of industrial. As savage writes)
As for neo-avantgarde, both industrial and PE are no longer 'at the front' of music, aesthetically. As for industrial music for industrial people, there is the term, and its used by Jon Savage in his text where TG exemplify what he means by 'industrial'.  TG though did not develop from rock music but from COUM.

You are free to think and write " Industrial music must be based ONLY on ANTI-MUSIC, so only on NOISE" but the historical facts are contrary to that idea. Just to be clear, do you think the  five postulates of industrial music by Jon Savage are valid criteria for establishing what is industrial. If you do not, why mention them? For they do establish TG as Industrial. And "using real esthethic factors" - it is only with noise that 'esthethic factors' become irrelevant, though that doesn't preclude noise from being music, that the inappropriateness of aesthetic factors – found in Industrial and PE are no longer valid are part of differentiating Noise from PE and Industrial.

" Industrial music must be based ONLY on ANTI-MUSIC, without any pseudo musical factors  "
Which is at odds with the general idea of industrial music. So you would call Vomir industrial, I would not.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

I think you need to provide some support for this, it seems I was wrong re 1910, 1825 – Origin of the term "is usually credited to the influential thinker Henri de Saint-Simon, one of the forerunners of socialism. He believed in the social power of the arts and saw artists, alongside scientists and industrialists, as the leaders of a new society."  ..." for most of the 20th century—and the 19th as well—the term avant-garde was widely used to define attempts to forge new dimensions to our aesthetic and political definitions of reality.  "  You seem to deny this. OK have your own definition. My other "increased emphasis on aesthetic issues has continued to the present. Avant-garde today generally refers to groups of intellectuals, writers, and artists, including architects, who voice ideas and experiment with artistic approaches that challenge current cultural values." Again includes many for whom de Sade was significant.  And you see their granting him such importance not changing your opinion, which of course you are welcome to.

Re Stapleton, my mistake, it was of course Whitehouse and William Bennett  who coined the term Power Electronics, I was confused by your reference to Stapleton and Surrealism? He maybe thought his music surreal, but it seems irrelevant to the development of the sub genre PE from Industrial, to which Throbbing Gristle as Savage points out was seminal and originator of Industrial Music.  If you now reject Savages criteria and his examples and what is generally accepted, again you are welcome. (I see no evidence of TG being ' an avant-garde of rock music' deriving from COUM – Fine Art movements, Fluxus. They seem continually to be identified with the origins of industrial. As savage writes)
As for neo-avantgarde, both industrial and PE are no longer 'at the front' of music, aesthetically. As for industrial music for industrial people, there is the term, and its used by Jon Savage in his text where TG exemplify what he means by 'industrial'.  TG though did not develop from rock music but from COUM.

You are free to think and write " Industrial music must be based ONLY on ANTI-MUSIC, so only on NOISE" but the historical facts are contrary to that idea. Just to be clear, do you think the  five postulates of industrial music by Jon Savage are valid criteria for establishing what is industrial. If you do not, why mention them? For they do establish TG as Industrial. And "using real esthethic factors" - it is only with noise that 'esthethic factors' become irrelevant, though that doesn't preclude noise from being music, that the inappropriateness of aesthetic factors – found in Industrial and PE are no longer valid are part of differentiating Noise from PE and Industrial.

" Industrial music must be based ONLY on ANTI-MUSIC, without any pseudo musical factors  "
Which is at odds with the general idea of industrial music. So you would call Vomir industrial, I would not.

"I think you need to provide some support for this, it seems I was wrong re 1910, 1825 – Origin of the term "is usually credited to the influential thinker Henri de Saint-Simon, one of the forerunners of socialism. He believed in the social power of the arts and saw artists, alongside scientists and industrialists, as the leaders of a new society."  ..." for most of the 20th century—and the 19th as well—the term avant-garde was widely used to define attempts to forge new dimensions to our aesthetic and political definitions of reality.


Do you wat to put Henri de Saint-Simon as an avantgardist in the art or an avantgardist in politics or economics? I don't understand you. Again, and again, do you consider AVANT-GARDE as trend in art or in culture/phlosophy here? I would like to remind you that we are discussing here about music, so about the art, not about precursors in politics or in the science.


"If you now reject Savages criteria and his examples and what is generally accepted, again you are welcome. (I see no evidence of TG being ' an avant-garde of rock music' deriving from COUM – Fine Art movements, Fluxus. They seem continually to be identified with the origins of industrial. As savage writes)"


I don't reject Savages criteria, quite the contrary, his criteria perfectly are describing what should be INDUSTRIAL MUSIC. He wrote clearly - INDUSTRIAL MUSIC should be based on anti-music... only. I didn't read there that he mentioned about anti-music can be or should be mixed up with other styles of genres in music. And did you?  Don't you see evidence of TG being rockish? we only have to listen their recordings. Of course, some of them are more experimental than others, but there is still rock expression, psychedelic atmosphere, krautrockish influences - listen to KLUSTER recordings! Besides, GPO mentioned many times that he wanted to adopt in TG experimental/avantgardish ideas in more popular formulas. Take books about history of  rock music in every of them (at least I know such) TG is classified as rock band witch avantgarde touch. TG was established from COUM, indeed. Did I write somethgng different? I wrote about an estehetic base for TG music.


"both industrial and PE are no longer 'at the front' of music, aesthetically"

And what? What is the music in your opinion?


"Which is at odds with the general idea of industrial music."

and what is general idea of industrial music?

[JLIAT]

Do you wat to put Henri de Saint-Simon as an avantgardist in the art or an avantgardist in politics? I don't understand you. Again, and again, do you consider AVANT-GARDE as trend in art or in culture here? I would like to remind you that we are discussing here about music, so about the art, not about precursors in politics or in the science.

I've given three definitions of avant garde, a trend in culture and it seems politics. What we are discussing here are specific genres in music. Do I consider Industrial music Avant Garde, not particularly, as you point out music concrete, Stockhausen, Cage were in the avant garde of music.

"When we shifted from Coum Transmissions to TG, we were also stating that we wanted to go into popular culture, away from the art gallery context, and show that the same technique that had been made to operate in that system could work. We wanted to test it out in the real world, or nearer to the real world, at a more street level – with young kids who had no education in art perception, who didn't come along and either empathised or didn't; either liked the noise or didn't. A little mini-Dada movement, eh?"
P-Orridge, 1983.

So maybe popular avant-garde...? And you can see TG had no rock origins.

But as the idea of an avant-garde has the idea of a direction and as the limit of this has now been reached both in the likes of 4'33" and HNW there cannot anymore be an Avant-garde.

I don't reject Savages criteria, quite the contrary, his criteria perfectly are describing what should be INDUSTRIAL MUSIC. He wrote clearly - INDUSTRIAL MUSIC should be based on anti-music... only.

"3) USE OF SYNTHESIZERS AND ANTI-MUSIC. This is self-explanatory. Although music was the means to an end, rather than the end in itself, there was still the necessity of matching form to format. In this, Throbbing Gristle's Second Annual Report (1977) with its reliance on synthesizers and non-musical sounds, was prototypical. "

As for anti-music only – no.

"EXTRA-MUSICAL ELEMENTS. Much of this comes under "Access To Information," but there is more besides. Introduction of literary elements in a thorough--as opposed to typical pop dilettantism--manner: the full debt was made clear only long after "Industrial" had passed, in the Final Academy held in London in October, 1982. "

So you see extra musical elements, and that he claims by 1982 Industrial had passed.  You cant accept Savage's criteria where " Second Annual Report (1977) ...was prototypical"  etc. and then say TG was not industrial without contradiction.

I didn't read there that he mentioned about anti-music and other genres in music. And did you?  Don't you see evidence of TG being rockish? we only have to listen their recordings. Of course, some of them are more experimental than others, but there is still rock expression, psychedelic atmosphere, krautrockish influences - listen to KLUSTER recordings! Besides, GPO mentioned many times that he wanted to adopt in TG experimental/avantgardish ideas in more popular formulas. Take books about history of  rock music in every of them TG is classified as rock band witch avantgarde touch.

Biba Kopf sees TG as industrial - was leading feature writer on Melody Maker and NME in the late '70s and '80s currently the Editor-in-Chief of The Wire. From Hegarty, p 106 "The term 'industrial  Music' is mostly thought to have come from Throbbing Gristle's label Industrial Records..". Wiki - "Prominent industrial musicians include Throbbing Gristle..." Discogs 840 = industrial Art Rock = 12... Last FM "Industrial music is a style of experimental music that draws on transgressive and provocative themes. The term was coined in the mid-1970s with the founding of Industrial Records by the band Throbbing Gristle" Britannica - "coined by British post punk experimentalist Throbbing Gristle... udicovermusic "Industrial" may be convenient shorthand for the genre's hard-synth sound, however, the term refers to the Industrial Records imprint created in the mid-70s by Throbbing Gristle, its avant-garde forbearers." All music "The first group of industrial bands -- England's Throbbing Gristle and Cabaret Voltaire, and Germany's Einsturzende Neubauten" ... and of course Savage defines industrial by continual reference to TG.

"both industrial and PE are no longer 'at the front' of music, aesthetically"

And what? What is the music in your opinion?

There is no front.

and what is general idea of industrial music?

I'll go with the above quotes, other texts notably  Hegarty  and this -

http://music.hyperreal.org/epsilon/info/industrial_principles.html

esp. " "Industrial" had passed, in the Final Academy held in London in October, 1982"

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

So maybe popular avant-garde...? And you can see TG had no rock origins.

And maybe you must understand that GPO, as every young man, without music schools and fascinated rock psychedelic music, could adopt "avantgarde" only by such tools which he can use? So popular music, which he knew? So rock? For me it is obvious, it is obvious when I am listening to TG music also.

"Do I consider Industrial music Avant Garde, not particularly, as you point out music concrete, Stockhausen, Cage were in the avant garde of music."

I don't understand this sentence. Do you know what is difference between Avantgarde and neo-avantgarde? I consider industrial music which has his artistic bloodline mainly in the neo-avantgarde, not in avant-garde.

"As for anti-music only – no."

Yes, it is. I am writing about MUSIC not extra musical elements, like performance art, video art, body art or literature. I am writing about essence of music art, how this music was build up from a sound. Multimedia was only a method of using music and other kind of art. When you are listening music from record, you hear music - not see visual aspects, ok?


"There is no front."

I don't understand this.

[ImpulsyStetoskopu]

And, the most important case. Savage's five parameters concerns on "Industrial Culture", only one of them concerns on the "industrial music", this one number 3: USE OF SYNTHESIZERS AND ANTI-MUSIC, where it speaks there only about music which shouldn't be aim in itself. This is only strategy using of sound/music, nothing more about music which should be created in form of an "anti-music", so on base of noise, nothing more.

[JLIAT]

1. I couldn't give a tuppeny fart whether TG are industrial or not.

Then what is missing is any regard to truth. Ergo my Trump / Taliban reference.

2. I made no reference to the demise of any forums.

Well given 1 i could say i dont give a fart for what you say, but i do. You say " lies with the, seemingly deliberate, contrarianism I see in JLIAT's posts; not just here, but elsewhere." then you do give a fart, and the issue is what is missing. So "deliberate, contrarianism " to what? That TG was not industrial? That the origins of a genre are unimportant to you. Fine, but why then post that i'm being " seemingly deliberate, contrarianism " when its generally considered true?

3. If I'm 'attacking' anything, it's your style of communication.

Sure i get this. So you dont care about the facts of the matter just how the lies or truth is presented. Here is again maybe what is missing. When a genre just becomes about style. When anything becomes about style and not content. Then something is missing.

[JLIAT]

You derailed a useful discussion, plain and simple,

Please show how it was useful.

It was useful cause it was interesting for me to read peoples 'simple' opinions on this matter based on their feelings. Read collapsedhole's post for example. Something that is personal, something that i can relate to, something that i enjoy to read. Yours, i cant even read ! Dont know if you write the biggest 'truths' in there, i cant follow all this blah blah, i dont care and i dont think anyone asked for a philosophical analysis ! Neither for a 'solution' , as you probably mean by 'useful' ! We asked for personal opinions ... not bibliography. - And that's not even the problem. Problem is you go on and on and on ... You dont stop man !

Bringing Trump and Taliban here. Makes sense. It's you who had brought holocaust and seeing everywhere racists in the covid thread, isnt it ?

Come on ! Let others speak. You dont have to answer everything. Dont educate me more please.

Am I stopping anyone from speaking?  I'm certainly not trying to educate anyone. If people want to think Throbbing Gristle were not seminal in the origins industrial music fine. As for philosophical analysis, i've done no such thing, though the "P" word has now been used, and the criticism of  an (for me and impu) interesting exchange seems bordering on anti-intellectualism.