Special Interest

GEAR / TECHNOLOGY => gear/tech/etc => Topic started by: Strangecross on February 24, 2019, 04:48:34 PM



Title: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Strangecross on February 24, 2019, 04:48:34 PM
Looking for releases that have really loud harsh sounds that cut through the normal range of harsh noise. (PE as well- I think the Grey Wolves may have some things like this- or a good example is Genocide Organ's 'Elders of Zion'))
The type of thing I am talking about may often be achieved by homemade electronics -Kites used to make his own noise gear and the cd with the very long name had at least one track that seemed louder than any other cd i owned- thinking back on the time i listened to that cd, Mammal's Double Nature also comes to mind.
buzzing feedback seems more apt to this than a wall of static.
sometimes seems like more of an accident than intentional.
what can make a sound so loud when there is no profesional high grade work or fancy equiptment involved?


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Strangecross on February 24, 2019, 10:00:28 PM
looking for examples of releases with ideas about how its done


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Cementimental on February 25, 2019, 05:30:40 PM
Your examples are vague so no idea, but based on most times people ask questions along the lines of 'what £10000 synth do I need to recreate this sound from some 80's death industrial track' I guess it would turn out to be just some ham-handed generic microphone feedback sound coming thru, and maybe the cheapest flanger you could buy in 1987, recorded into the red on a tape 4-track. :D

Quote
what can make a sound so loud when there is no profesional high grade work or fancy equiptment involved?
you don't need professional equipment to be loud. just turn things up so that they clip. if you want it to really stand out as being 'loud' then make everything else less loud.


Quote
looking for examples of releases with ideas about how its done
First time i've seen someone ask other people to find the examples of what they are asking about :D


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Strangecross on February 25, 2019, 07:47:31 PM
No
abnormally loud.


i considered posting this in gerneral sound discussion for people to list loudest releases they have heard- nothing about quality or even if the music is liked- just sounds that completely cut through the mix
I decided to tie it into a gear talk as well.




Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Cementimental on February 25, 2019, 09:36:49 PM
Well that doesn't help much, abnormally loud isn't an objective measure, it just means something is louder than the rest of the mix / clipping harder. :) and/or the frequency of the sound is one that sounds more 'cutting' + psychologically louder. Some examples would still be useful to get what you mean, not gonna just listen to random Gray Wolves or whatever and hope for the best. That GO track sounds like samples of some kind of reverby metal clashing noise?

This is probably worth looking into on this subject: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equal-loudness_contour

'Loudest' album i can think of is Guitar Wolf 'Jet Generation' :)

Pulse Demon and/or other Merzbow CDs of that era came with the myth that they had to make a special arrangement with the pressing plant because they were mastered at levels beyond what the CD format usually allowed, no idea if there's any truth to that or not tho


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Strangecross on February 25, 2019, 10:38:14 PM
Pulse Demon and/or other Merzbow CDs of that era came with the myth that they had to make a special arrangement with the pressing plant because they were mastered at levels beyond what the CD format usually allowed, no idea if there's any truth to that or not tho

I remember hearing similar rumours about Mammal, one of my original examples.

Here's the Kites track I mentioned https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T76-bxuyQQw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T76-bxuyQQw)
I think both mammal and kites used circuit bending.


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Duncan on February 25, 2019, 11:06:58 PM
Yeah, I think what you might be interested in here is probably coming from a lot of circuit bending and probably even no input mixing too.  Synths can do it and I think they'll have something to do with the Genocide Organ track you mentioned.

Lots of what happens in Voice Crack will be up yr street: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YFV_QSZFHxg

Also, of course, Cementimental.


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Strangecross on February 25, 2019, 11:17:02 PM
thanks for the link. I am starting to realize the errors of my wording, maybe I should ask about gear or how to bend circuits that make frequencies and gain at a higher level without having to effect the line out


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: A-Z on February 26, 2019, 11:48:48 AM
some oversimplified technical considerations:

- you can't go louder than 0db anyway, circuit bent or not
- the lower the frequency of the sound, the quieter it seems, i.e. 0db of 100 hz is much quieter than 0db of 1000 hz
- once you've reached 0db, you can only add volume to some frequencies if you turn down other frequencies
- human hearing is most sensitive to frequencies between 2000 and 5000 hz
- loud sounds seem louder when placed next to quiet sounds

conclusion:

play something quiet, then blast shit clipped at 0db, highpassed at 2 khz and lowpassed at 5 khz

something along those lines likely happens on The Elders Of Zion
you can open it in a daw and check the frequency analyzer


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: theworldisawarfilm on February 26, 2019, 04:34:21 PM
some oversimplified technical considerations:

- you can't go louder than 0db anyway, circuit bent or not
- the lower the frequency of the sound, the quieter it seems, i.e. 0db of 100 hz is much quieter than 0db of 1000 hz
- once you've reached 0db, you can only add volume to some frequencies if you turn down other frequencies
- human hearing is most sensitive to frequencies between 2000 and 5000 hz
- loud sounds seem louder when placed next to quiet sounds

conclusion:

play something quiet, then blast shit clipped at 0db, highpassed at 2 khz and lowpassed at 5 khz

something along those lines likely happens on The Elders Of Zion
you can open it in a daw and check the frequency analyzer

-applause-


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Strangecross on February 26, 2019, 05:18:28 PM
Ok- so you let's say you are making noise- your mixers are constantly in the red, the amps are cranked, everything is so loud that your ears are going to be ringing, and then you stumble across a sound that just cuts through everything and appears even louder than everything else. (like i said before its usually a saw tooth-ish kind of of buzz).

Same goes for recordings. you have undecipherable bars of clipping on your track- but somehting cuts through and hits hard for no apparent reason.

I would like to have a discussion about this percieved loudness, with examples, and thoughts about what was used.

Merzbow albums like 'rainbow electronics' are full of this kind of stuff- but I am looking for less 'pro' approaches.(but not totally)


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Strangecross on February 26, 2019, 05:21:05 PM
I am not interested in affecting Hz as an after effect, I just want ear splitting sounds that don't sound like pedals or mic's/acoustics.


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: EXU on February 26, 2019, 08:59:30 PM
Then you've found your quest, I guess.


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Strangecross on February 26, 2019, 09:10:27 PM
to be more technical: 'shrillness'
-alarms
non-music equipment that is more annoying then an average sound but can be utilized in a gear set-up

a 180db rocket launch is loud, but its not captured that loud on a recording. nails on a chalkboard- this is loud
-psychoacoustics

questions: whats hz range is created by average noise gear? how does it change?
without adjusting the amp, lets say a death metal pedal with a no input mixer as a source- what hz range can it achieve?
can sound pressure and intensity be accounted for when using just average household sound systems? or can you only get into sound pressure with truly loud sounds i.e. something outdoors where atmospheric pressure comes into play...


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Cementimental on February 26, 2019, 11:07:12 PM
good questions to ask youself :)

you probably want to get into resonant filters.


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: Soloman Tump on February 26, 2019, 11:27:49 PM
Noise trick:
Start a recording off quiet for a few minutes which would naturally encourage the listener to turn it up. Maybe some muffled vocals or percussion.

Then out of nowhere, blast 0db sonic mayhem.
It will be loud.


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: A-Z on February 27, 2019, 02:51:51 PM
Ok- so you let's say you are making noise- your mixers are constantly in the red, the amps are cranked, everything is so loud that your ears are going to be ringing, and then you stumble across a sound that just cuts through everything and appears even louder than everything else. (like i said before its usually a saw tooth-ish kind of of buzz).

this happens when
- your old noise and your new noise consist of different frequencies, and the new noise has more hi-mids
- you put a compressor on the old noise and sidechain it with the new noise
- your new noise is richer in odd harmonics, for example it's a saw tooth-ish kind of of buzz


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: l.b. on March 04, 2019, 07:53:54 PM
'Loudest' album i can think of is Guitar Wolf 'Jet Generation' :)

ha came to post exactly this. after years of harsh noise/extreme metal this is still the loudest record ive ever heard


Title: Re: Abnormally loud sounds on recordings
Post by: dodecaphonic on April 03, 2019, 12:03:45 PM
the loudest i heard was junko's the void

perceived loudness is most important don't rely to heavily on audio metering,
even if your recording is up there around 0dbfs won't mean it will sound instantly 'noisey' or the 'loudest'
because the dbfs scale doesn't translate to how we hear loudness.
its psychoacoustics mane. - - as another person pointed out.

-
LUFS - readings - can give you a much more accurate representation of how our ear perceives loudness