Special Interest

GENERAL VISUAL ART / LITERATURE DISCUSSION => GENERAL VISUAL ART / LITERATURE DISCUSSION => Topic started by: Sadomaniac on August 22, 2016, 08:10:41 AM



Title: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Sadomaniac on August 22, 2016, 08:10:41 AM
Just published PE book from Headpress, looks fantastic!

http://www.headpress.com/ShowProduct.aspx?ID=158

http://www.worldheadpress.com/fight-your-own-war-extract-314

https://youtu.be/2aVdzy5zsJ0


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Kim V on August 22, 2016, 09:01:42 AM
ordered, and highly anticipating it's arrival in my mailbox.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: tiny_tove on August 22, 2016, 11:00:42 AM
ordered mine, looks very intriguing and it is definitely a plus the fact that for once it includes contemporary insiders who know what they are talking about


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: absurdexposition on August 22, 2016, 04:04:19 PM
Looking forward to grabbing the paperback edition.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Guldur on August 22, 2016, 04:33:58 PM
Ordered too. As soon as i have it, i will try to put down a review or something...


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: V.T.R on August 22, 2016, 05:05:25 PM
Looks great and must have. I prefer the paperback version.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: yosef666 on August 22, 2016, 08:29:41 PM
Ordered yesterday, definitely looking forward to this!


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: PTM Jim on August 22, 2016, 09:16:49 PM
Tried to order and it wouldn't convert my currency for some reason. Emailed them hoping they can accept paypal.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Goat93 on August 22, 2016, 11:01:58 PM
Tried to order and it wouldn't convert my currency for some reason. Emailed them hoping they can accept paypal.

Please let me know if they accept Paypal, want to buy it , too.



Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: PTM Jim on August 23, 2016, 05:03:57 AM
Tried to order and it wouldn't convert my currency for some reason. Emailed them hoping they can accept paypal.

Please let me know if they accept Paypal, want to buy it , too.


Will do.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Urban Noise on August 23, 2016, 04:22:56 PM
I think they don't.

I'll probably wait until Tesco have some to sell or another distro.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: absurdexposition on August 24, 2016, 04:59:54 AM
Pre-ordered on Amazon.ca


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: david lloyd jones on August 24, 2016, 06:49:54 PM
headpress, always interesting even from the get go with their mags,


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: david lloyd jones on September 14, 2016, 01:36:42 PM
reading this at the moment.
at heart it is an oral history of  pe culture, which is despite the flaws of this approach, the most satisfying approach.
there are references with articles but the academic approach does not get in the way-have read plenty of books on film where the theoretical approach stifles the joy out of all, and even made me think if the writer is describing the same film that I have seen.
it doesn't aim or claim to be encyclopaedic, is subjective but so far enjoyable.
the free download album, I have not listened to yet, but seems mostly tracks from contributors rather than a scene compilation /history. 


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: cantle on September 14, 2016, 08:20:48 PM
Got my copy through yesterday- though I'm yet to start on it.

The download album is very much a compilation of contributers, it's OK with some decent tracks but doesn't flow so well together.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: holy ghost on October 26, 2016, 04:47:39 AM
Got mine from amazon yesterday. Looks really cool. I'm reading another book right now so I won't start this until I'm done.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Zodiac on October 26, 2016, 05:46:32 PM
just did order it via amazon. looking  forward to it. looks like a good and interesting read.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: HongKongGoolagong on October 27, 2016, 05:58:22 AM
I was so happy she especially liked the picture of my crotch - https://twitter.com/harbottlestores/status/757893982731005952

Very much looking forward to reading this thing. I think I may have contributed some memories of 90s Whitehouse shows to one chapter by a Record Collector magazine journalist but not sure what he will have used.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: david lloyd jones on October 30, 2016, 09:29:40 PM
I was so happy she especially liked the picture of my crotch - https://twitter.com/harbottlestores/status/757893982731005952

Very much looking forward to reading this thing. I think I may have contributed some memories of 90s Whitehouse shows to one chapter by a Record Collector magazine journalist but not sure what he will have used.

everyone has memories of Whitehouse shows, you should feel privileged that someone has a memory of your crotch!


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: cr on November 05, 2016, 06:22:09 PM
The download album is very much a compilation of contributers, it's OK with some decent tracks but doesn't flow so well together.

Yeah, unfortunately the compilation is not that good, apart from the Streicher track.
The book I think is great, I like that you can open it anywhere and find something interesting to read. At least from my perspective of just being a fanboy, hehe.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: david lloyd jones on November 07, 2016, 03:05:24 PM
for those reluctant or unable to shell out for the hardback, the paperback is now out at a much cheaper price


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: holy ghost on November 24, 2016, 09:14:13 PM
Bought the paperback. I'm about 60 pages on and I'm really enjoying it. I like that it's not an "authoritative history" kind of deal and more of a collection of writings. I really enjoyed the chapter on Finland a lot!



Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on November 24, 2016, 09:42:07 PM
Those who don't feel like ordering from book dealers, but noise distros, Freak Animal has it too. Of course, buying direct may be always cheapest, but here you may get to order it along with some noise releases...
http://www.nhfastore.net/FIGHT-YOUR-OWN-WAR

I like the book for what it is. Exactly that it would also allow sequel. Not only offering THE book of noise, but something possible to expand. I have yet to complete reading it all, but there has been goodies and some lame ones.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: JuhoN on November 28, 2016, 01:09:50 PM
Those who don't feel like ordering from book dealers, but noise distros, Freak Animal has it too. Of course, buying direct may be always cheapest, but here you may get to order it along with some noise releases...
http://www.nhfastore.net/FIGHT-YOUR-OWN-WAR

I like the book for what it is. Exactly that it would also allow sequel. Not only offering THE book of noise, but something possible to expand. I have yet to complete reading it all, but there has been goodies and some lame ones.

I did so, along with few noise 7'.



Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: HongKongGoolagong on December 01, 2016, 11:44:40 AM
Read it finally this week and was impressed: much better than I had imagined. Very wide range of authorial styles and tones, from drily academic to wildly passionate to sarcastic and gossipy. A joy for anyone who loves and knows this music yet towards the end there are two furious chapters critiquing the scene mercilessly from Spencer Grady and Sonia Dietrich - clever editing and sequencing from Ms Wallis to slowly move from the relatively uncritical and dispassionate historifications of the first section to that kind of self-immolation where the book almost attacks its own reason for existing.

I have heard criticism over the inclusion of somewhat obscure act Deathtripping (I'd also never heard of them) but their pieces describing how they work actually function well as a kind of illustration of an archetypal small scale PE/industrial project - their deeply twisted 'stalker' project certainly gave me a laugh.

Mentions must also go to Ulex Xane's striking defence of the offensive and objectionable qualities within the genre and his articulate explanation of why he was called Streicher, to d.foist's painstakingly researched historical overview of the North of England live scene, and to Nathan Clemence's very professional and readable chapter where he allows interviewed musicians to speak at length about their experiences of playing live.

Well done Jen and everyone else involved - highly recommended.


Title: tter than thought it Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: david lloyd jones on December 03, 2016, 05:04:51 PM
agree with above post. Better than thought it would
be.
enjoyable as I hoped it would be. I do like oral histories-subjective, but nevertheless, how it was.
individual inconsistencies dissolve into a greater reality.
and, as mikko pointed out, ripe for a sequel or alternative view.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Zodiac on December 04, 2016, 02:08:32 AM
I like the book for what it is. Exactly that it would also allow sequel. Not only offering THE book of noise, but something possible to expand. I have yet to complete reading it all, but there has been goodies and some lame ones.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: holy ghost on December 04, 2016, 03:03:46 AM
I finished this the other night. While fist off I really enjoyed it, I felt like my only real objection to the book (particularly the HNW chapter) was the constant reference to noise forums. I felt like it added nothing save to make the noise community seem reduced to a bunch of squabbling fishwives (hmmm.....?) and maybe it's just hitting a little too close to home as I've read/lurked the forums for years.... I guess I felt like you could write a lot more interesting stuff about The Rita, Vomir, Werewolf Jerusalem without needing to cite whatever argument happened on the Maniacs Only board....

That being said, it was a cool read. I particularly enjoyed the Finland chapter and despite my criticism above I enjoyed the HNW chapter. I also liked the chapter penned by BRUT as it didn't attempt to be "sophisticated" and tore the reader a new one.

I would say, if there was a second book I think less on Whitehouse and more of the album spotlights. I also don't need to read any more oral history on say, Throbbing Gristle but I think it would have been interesting to perhaps give a nod to albums that aren't classified as PE but maybe provided influence? Hey, I'm just thinking out loud here.....


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on March 13, 2017, 12:51:13 PM
Detailed review of book, commenting each chapter.

http://special-interests.net/main/2017/03/13/review-book-fight-your-own-war-power-electronics-and-noise-culture/


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Fluid Fetish on March 14, 2017, 04:15:16 AM
Quote
As you have probably noticed, I am not inclined to easy criticism yet it is impossible not to be ashamed by the contemptuous tone of this piece. Of course, a certain solemnity has always surrounded the scene yet, in no case, the ‘hooligans of noise’ need the ludicrous ramblings of a jazz and avant-garde music specialist to caricature their culture. It is pretty hard to endure the opinion of someone pompously analyzing the power electronics’ intents for the sole purpose of criticizing its lack of humor, with lame and out of context examples in addition to an endless name dropping. “So, what better way to counter the rigid solemnity of authority, artistic or otherwise, than a good old-tickler? Send-ups such Aristophanes’ Lysistrata and Charlie Chaplin’s The Great Dictator (1940) have lampooned the irrationality of blind obedience, while satires such as Tony Hancock vehicle The Rebel (1961) and Family Guy episode A Picture is worth a 1,000 Bucks have tugged the rug from under the modern art world, puncturing pretension with sourpuss sarcasm, making more of an impression than any Broken Flag release.” I certainly do understand that a book covering controversial subjects needs counterweights, yet such a sustained mocking diatribe is only diminishing the seriousness of the best pieces of the tome.

Couldn't have said it better myself. This book was excellent, and I particularly enjoyed the HNW chapter and a few others, but the Spencer Grady chapter is utterly horrible and one of the most inane and redundant pieces of writing I've ever wasted time on...and that's saying a lot.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: FSR on December 18, 2020, 05:56:48 PM
I really wanted to like this book. The self-congratulatory tone on the early chapters was off-putting, but they were informative, and enjoyable overall. The first part could use some additions though - chapters on Swedish, German and Japanese scenes would be welcome, as well as one about notable projects from other countries. And generally more on UK and US would be great too. After that it went downhill (with occasional ups like the chapter on HNW). The ending however... Oh, boy. First we get someone complaining about lack of humour in pe, then we get a raving feminist spewing 'white man bad' propaganda and complaining she's not as popular as these 'sexist' men. I would really like to have a chapter appreciating women that do good in pe (Pharmakon, Puce Mary, Sewer Goddess, Lana del Rabies) instead of this narcissistic, man-hating rant. Overall, I hope that will not be the last book on the subject, and that the next one will be better.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: n a a r a on August 01, 2021, 03:42:42 PM
I have read some articles (not all of them) on this book and I have similar thoughts like the previous user but for different reasons. I think the articles have great variation in them for good and the worst. Some of them are very interesting and well-written, others more like self-centered bragging. Great writing skills and significancy in DIY music scenes don't obviously walk hand in hand. Curating and editing books like this is very hard when working on non-profit setting or something like that and it is not helped by the limited interest of skilled publishers. I really hope more quality literature on noise and PE is on its way.

I recommend this book to readers who share the passion for this kind of music/sound AND are able to put their critical glasses on while reading! If you read it as a handbook/overview to power electronics... no. Just don't do it.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: burdizzo1 on October 04, 2021, 07:21:31 PM
Neuesachlichkeit - Programmed To Kill is a thousand times better. And it has a CD, too.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Balor/SS1535 on October 04, 2021, 08:22:50 PM
Neuesachlichkeit - Programmed To Kill is a thousand times better. And it has a CD, too.

Wasn't that mostly interviews though?  Also, to be fair, the special edition did come with a downloadable compilation (though it does not look as good as the one you mention).


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: burdizzo1 on October 04, 2021, 09:53:12 PM
Yes, there are a lot of interviews, but also artwork and a few essays. Ulex Xane is in both books, but "Neuesachlichkeit" is both fresher and much closer to the bone, and makes "Fight Your Own War" seem sanitised by comparison. However, I get your point; it's not necessarily a scene overview, but more an embracing of the grimier - read 'Nazi'/ Sex/ Death - p.e. outliers. But it's well presented an more of an art project than "Fight...", too. Right down to the inclusion of a human tooth!
CD beats download code - any day!


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Balor/SS1535 on October 04, 2021, 10:00:55 PM
Yes, there are a lot of interviews, but also artwork and a few essays. Ulex Xane is in both books, but "Neuesachlichkeit" is both fresher and much closer to the bone, and makes "Fight Your Own War" seem sanitised by comparison. However, I get your point; it's not necessarily a scene overview, but more an embracing of the grimier - read 'Nazi'/ Sex/ Death - p.e. outliers. But it's well presented an more of an art project than "Fight...", too. Right down to the inclusion of a human tooth!
CD beats download code - any day!

Fair enough (and absolutely right about the cd!).  The books seem to each have a different project that they are trying to accomplish.  Part of me wishes that I had purchased a copy of Neusachlichkeit (and the first one) when it was available, but I just don't like the people behind it.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: burdizzo1 on October 04, 2021, 10:11:10 PM
Oh? What's wrong with them?!

Anyway, they did a reprint of an additional 50 copies last month, so some of those might still be available?


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Balor/SS1535 on October 04, 2021, 10:26:58 PM
Oh? What's wrong with them?!

Anyway, they did a reprint of an additional 50 copies last month, so some of those might still be available?

It was the animal abuse stuff that put me off.  I don't care too much about humans (hence, I have zero problem with the content of their book), but I just did not want to give them my money.  Perhaps I will buy it second hand one day.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: burdizzo1 on October 04, 2021, 10:32:32 PM
Oh, right - I didn't know about that?



Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Theodore on October 05, 2021, 10:17:46 AM
It was the animal abuse stuff that put me off.  I don't care too much about humans (hence, I have zero problem with the content of their book), but I just did not want to give them my money.  Perhaps I will buy it second hand one day.

What animal abuse you talking about ? - Indeed, for me too, animal abuse / unjustified cruelty against animals [human excluded] is probably the only thing that can emotionaly hurt me, and i need to punish / revenge such people. - Animals are my sensitive spot. Point a gun on my head and force me to kill a man or a dog [both unknowns to me] , there is no dilemma, man is dead. - Still, ofcource i eat meat, would kill to eat or protect myself and my people.

Re: money : A product is a product. If i like it, need it, i dont care who made it and if it is 'good' guy / company or who owns the store.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: vomitgore on October 05, 2021, 12:21:01 PM
The allegations of animal abuse regarding Neue Sachlichkeit are factually wrong. I know the creator(s) very well and was aware of most of the production steps. People involved have reptiles and the creators buy frozen rats as reptile food. Parts of those were included. Every Noise artist who has ever had a McDonalds meal is more of an animal abuser than that.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Balor/SS1535 on October 05, 2021, 04:19:11 PM
People involved have reptiles and the creators buy frozen rats as reptile food.

If only they presented it in such a sterile manner.  https://www.facebook.com/pg/officialneuesachlichkeit/photos/?ref=page_internal

I will admit that I might have been wrong about them being actively abusive, but with some of the photos that they have posted can I really be blamed for thinking what I did?


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Balor/SS1535 on October 05, 2021, 04:22:02 PM
It was the animal abuse stuff that put me off.  I don't care too much about humans (hence, I have zero problem with the content of their book), but I just did not want to give them my money.  Perhaps I will buy it second hand one day.

What animal abuse you talking about ?

I was referring to their use of photos of mutilated rats/blood from cutting them up (presumably) for promotional purposes.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: vomitgore on October 05, 2021, 05:52:21 PM
People involved have reptiles and the creators buy frozen rats as reptile food.

If only they presented it in such a sterile manner.  https://www.facebook.com/pg/officialneuesachlichkeit/photos/?ref=page_internal

I will admit that I might have been wrong about them being actively abusive, but with some of the photos that they have posted can I really be blamed for thinking what I did?

Well, it's not really a question of blaming, more a bit of background Information. As far as I know, those pics were heavily influenced by "High Risk Lifestyle" era BU where there was also a dead rat in the LP special edition and various artwork with cut open rats and such.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Theodore on October 05, 2021, 06:06:58 PM
I guess what you do with an already dead body can be called art. Not abuse, definitely, given it wasnt killed for your purposes. Noone is hurt, more. If someone likes that or not, it's up to him. I for sure wouldnt like if instead of rats it was a more familiar species, i would get angry actualy, but i couldnt accuse him for anything more than ... hurting my feelings, heh.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: Balor/SS1535 on October 05, 2021, 06:45:08 PM
People involved have reptiles and the creators buy frozen rats as reptile food.

If only they presented it in such a sterile manner.  https://www.facebook.com/pg/officialneuesachlichkeit/photos/?ref=page_internal

I will admit that I might have been wrong about them being actively abusive, but with some of the photos that they have posted can I really be blamed for thinking what I did?

Well, it's not really a question of blaming, more a bit of background Information. As far as I know, those pics were heavily influenced by "High Risk Lifestyle" era BU where there was also a dead rat in the LP special edition and various artwork with cut open rats and such.

Fair enough, I guess.  I have had no contact with these people whatsoever, so seeing the pictures without backgroud left me feeling like there could only be one explanation.  I hope, at very least, that a snake (or some other creature) had a meal after the photo shoot!


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on October 07, 2021, 07:52:32 AM
I think it doesn't make much sense to compare Neuesachlichkeit to Fight Your Own War. They have very different approach and purpose. Originally, when SI started, the hopes where the 80's/90's style "anything goes". Not specific sound, not specific labels, not focusing on one corner of the genre.  Book like FYOW probably aimed to do it in a bit same way, attempting to cover slightly wider range of approach. I would assume it would be vastly better, if it was like vol 1, and to be expected more. Handful of volumes that give attention to even more countries, bands, subgenres, different aesthetics and so on.

In such case, it wouldn't matter much, if one particular volume is not perfect document of history, but ongoing documentation, hoping eventually to build wholeness that has purpose. As example, I am not overly concerned if all issues of SI are equally good and equally interesting, or gradually getting better. I'm more interested in situation, how I would feel of the pile of stuff when issue 20 comes out.

Neuesachlichkeit is very focused zine/book, and there is certainly audience for this approach, myself included. It is also easy to conclude that claiming it to be "vastly better" compared to something else, is easily dismissed if reader is into even slightly different part of scene? If sex & violence and all things extreme is not your liking, there is very little Neuesachlichkeit would offer?

I personally recommend to get all, though. This book, Neuesachlichkeit, Personal Best, New Forces, and so on. Each have enough content that can be skipped and continue from next piece.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: cantle on October 08, 2021, 02:48:07 PM
Where is the best place to order Neuesachlichkeit from? Am based in the UK. Thanks


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: burdizzo1 on October 08, 2021, 02:59:07 PM
Try this:
https://abgrund.bigcartel.com/product/neuesachlichkeit?fbclid=IwAR1LwOMN0tPGDcJ4DRAEFzvXZb6rdcO2AWLeUc-cgD0Gh_Yh1a657HXmX-w

Or, get in contact via their FB page:
https://www.facebook.com/officialneuesachlichkeit

You might also find an email address on that FB page.

Actually, on that bigcartel page it gives the email address, and says not to try and order via bigcartel!


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: cantle on October 08, 2021, 11:05:00 PM
Thanks for that :)


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: tiny_tove on October 12, 2021, 02:20:17 PM


Neuesachlichkeit is very focused zine/book, and there is certainly audience for this approach, myself included. It is also easy to conclude that claiming it to be "vastly better" compared to something else, is easily dismissed if reader is into even slightly different part of scene? If sex & violence and all things extreme is not your liking, there is very little Neuesachlichkeit would offer?

I personally recommend to get all, though. This book, Neuesachlichkeit, Personal Best, New Forces, and so on. Each have enough content that can be skipped and continue from next piece.

I agree with everything stated here. I was sorry to not be able to contribute to that book, author is a trustworthy person, but the approach of the book is diametrically different (not opposed, simply different), my the bible of filth published by my favourite French/Russian couple.

I support everything that documents the moment on a tangible support.


Title: Re: Fight Your Own War: Power Electronics and Noise Culture
Post by: no_baizuo_allowed on October 28, 2021, 12:39:03 AM
Some invaluable anecdotes from old timers in FYOW but also contentious propositions throughout. Probably due to its overzealous attempt to theorize the genre. This severance of power electronics from harsh noise sometimes provides valuable insights, but on the whole is quite awkward. This is the first time I've been made aware that AMK was 'power electronics' and not strictly 'noise'...


EDIT: This comment probably should have gone into the "The Rift Between PE and HN" thread in the GENERAL SOUND DISCUSSION board.