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« Reply #165 on: November 25, 2019, 01:07:48 PM »

whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission. 


Best? You mean the MB's album on Come Org? I think we can credit that for other British gentleman.



Two of them to be fair

If I ever heard the "White Power" compilation, it was on youtube, and I don't remember details.  I do remember Gary Mundy in ALAP saying that this was done to his track on the WP comp.  If I am remembering incorrectly, I'm not sure how.  Did Ramleh do a tape on Come Org?  If so, I didn't know about it. 
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« Reply #166 on: November 25, 2019, 02:02:02 PM »

whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission. 


Best? You mean the MB's album on Come Org? I think we can credit that for other British gentleman.



Two of them to be fair

If I ever heard the "White Power" compilation, it was on youtube, and I don't remember details.  I do remember Gary Mundy in ALAP saying that this was done to his track on the WP comp.  If I am remembering incorrectly, I'm not sure how.  Did Ramleh do a tape on Come Org?  If so, I didn't know about it. 


As far as I've read, the speech dumping was mainly done for "Weltanschauung" & "Triumph Of The Will" which were later released by menstrual under MB as originally intended. Since the contract was drafted by Stapleton, I think it's fair to say they were both complicit. Would be interesting to see the actual contract to check if legally valid. No idea what made him sign that piece of paper back then or whether he was just coerced to do so.

source:
"MB also lined up the "Liebstandart SSMB" release about the same time with William Bennet's Come Org.
William Bennet told me - in 81, the first and last time I met him - that Steve Stapleton drew up a "joke" contract for him giving Maurizio absolutely no rights to the recording in any way whatever ever, which Maurizio happily signed. Bennet added overdubs of Hitler speeches, Nazi martial music etc from one of those tapes they used to sell at the lunatic right wing shops."

- http://www.earthlydelights.co.uk/archive/interv3.html
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« Reply #167 on: November 26, 2019, 09:35:37 AM »

I doubt this should be any controversy anymore, hah... I think it merely added interesting chapter, in both, legacy of MB and Come Org. And those releases, with speeches, are among very best of MB!

"Copyright" / "legally valid contracts" most often mean nothing in underground.
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« Reply #168 on: November 26, 2019, 02:05:27 PM »

I doubt this should be any controversy anymore, hah... I think it merely added interesting chapter, in both, legacy of MB and Come Org. And those releases, with speeches, are among very best of MB!

"Copyright" / "legally valid contracts" most often mean nothing in underground.


I agree, I'm not sure why this was brought up now by nopartofit as it happened so long ago and is pretty much common knowledge.
For all my opinion is worth, signing the contract was dumb but I'm siding with MB here - fuck these guys for fucking him over like that. I don't care how sick people think the Leibstandarte stuff is.

Essentially, every agreement for a release is a contract, whether it's spoken, handshake or e-mailed or texted about and whenever you're dealing with recordings it should be assumed that you're automatically dealing with copyrighted material. In case the contract was broken (for instance agreed upon run of 300 copies and label owner re-issues second run of 300 copies a year later without permission or something similar, bootlegging material, etc.) the artist has every right to sue and should do so in my opinion. It might mean nothing in the "underground" but that doesn't mean artists are not protected by copyright law. Use someone else's work without permission and it might get costly...
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« Reply #169 on: November 27, 2019, 04:49:59 PM »

I doubt this should be any controversy anymore, hah... I think it merely added interesting chapter, in both, legacy of MB and Come Org. And those releases, with speeches, are among very best of MB!

"Copyright" / "legally valid contracts" most often mean nothing in underground.


I agree, I'm not sure why this was brought up now by nopartofit as it happened so long ago and is pretty much common knowledge.
For all my opinion is worth, signing the contract was dumb but I'm siding with MB here - fuck these guys for fucking him over like that. I don't care how sick people think the Leibstandarte stuff is.

Essentially, every agreement for a release is a contract, whether it's spoken, handshake or e-mailed or texted about and whenever you're dealing with recordings it should be assumed that you're automatically dealing with copyrighted material. In case the contract was broken (for instance agreed upon run of 300 copies and label owner re-issues second run of 300 copies a year later without permission or something similar, bootlegging material, etc.) the artist has every right to sue and should do so in my opinion. It might mean nothing in the "underground" but that doesn't mean artists are not protected by copyright law. Use someone else's work without permission and it might get costly...

I brought it up in contrast to the "witch hunt", which is the topic of this thread.  I tried to be clear that in my personal opinion, messing with anyone's original material, especially as it is released under their name, is more offensive to me than any "cryptofascism" that is often discussed in this time.   P. Best was brought up before I chimed in, as can be clearly seen, so I'm not sure what you're getting at here.  I wish I had my copy of AS LOUD AS POSSIBLE with me, as it is in storage, otherwise I'd quote Gary Mundy.  What I'm confident Best did not apologize for, although I haven't seen his apology, is asserting that artists are white supremacists when they're not necessarily, especially over their own work.  I'd recommend reading a few previous posts if you are still not sure. 
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« Reply #170 on: November 27, 2019, 05:36:46 PM »

I tried to be clear that in my personal opinion, messing with anyone's original material, especially as it is released under their name, is more offensive to me than any "cryptofascism" that is often discussed in this time.   (blahblahblah...)

I said "not sure" because I think your comparison is worthless to the discussion. Since Best did not alter MBs material, Bennett & Stapleton did. Bringing this up as a comparison would be like saying "oh in my opinion (random event that isn't connected whatsoever) is worse than crytofascism" ... okaaaay
Your problem is with someone apologizing for cryptofascism but not fucking with someone elses material. That's cool. My response to that is that whatever is passing a threshold of public outcry will be apologized for (like for instance Luke Tromiczak felt he had to for being on a photo with Robert Taylor) and that apologies are pretty much worthless.
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« Reply #171 on: November 27, 2019, 07:52:11 PM »

What I'm confident Best did not apologize for, although I haven't seen his apology, is asserting that artists are white supremacists when they're not necessarily, especially over their own work. 

I assume this is talk about White Power compilation tape? If someone makes assumptions based on front cover art, I would suppose if anyone would need to apologize, it's those people, for obviously being retards or drama queens. In that release, every track is so obvious sex noise, that anyone who'd look at it gets the point. Unless being low witted of having alternative motive to be "upset".

As far as history tells, Best has been working with many of the guys who were on that compilation after it was done. And continues to do so. He is in new 2019 Ramleh album too I recall? So I doubt anyone needs to worry if Gary Mundy or others would have issues. Best did apologize for it publicly and explained what it is, which I considered unfortunate, but not anymore after pondering potential reasons.
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« Reply #172 on: November 28, 2019, 01:39:01 PM »

Quote

I said "not sure" because I think your comparison is worthless to the discussion. Since Best did not alter MBs material, Bennett & Stapleton did. Bringing this up as a comparison would be like saying "oh in my opinion (random event that isn't connected whatsoever) is worse than crytofascism" ... okaaaay
Your problem is with someone apologizing for cryptofascism but not fucking with someone elses material. That's cool. My response to that is that whatever is passing a threshold of public outcry will be apologized for (like for instance Luke Tromiczak felt he had to for being on a photo with Robert Taylor) and that apologies are pretty much worthless.

I don't really care when people get negative attention that they actively seek out.  Some people deserve negative attention more than others.  The White Power compilation is a good example, because if any of those artists received negative attention from it without even volunteering to be part of that theme, if could have very real consequences.  If that happened in this current period especially.  I was just using it as an example to illustrate a deeper point, and it'd been brought up recently.  If people want to be vague, let them be vague.  If people want to be "confrontational", let them be confrontational and accept the inevitable consequences.  If people want to misrepresent other peoples' work in such a way that it could detrimentally affect their life and "career", they should expect to be knocked on their asses.  If everyone on that White Power comp was on it fully knowing that this would be the theme, then it is not, afterall, a good example of my point, although I thought it was and I wish I had that issue of ALAP with me, regardless of whether or not Gary Mundy takes issue with it now or not.   I'm not scatological enough for this petty bullshit to be "common knowledge".    If I am incorrect in my paraphrasing of an interview I read with Gary Mundy some years ago, I stand corrected.  If my point is still not clear, I'm not sure what else to say.   I have frankly seen very little of this discussion that I didn't consider specious at best.  I don't find Skullflower to be "confrontational" and I don't think that he deserves this sort of negative attention, but I could be wrong.   I hope he has taken steps to make sure that Quietus are more responsible about their speculations.  There are other things that are more important to be concerned over than "cryptofascism", and I only wanted to point out one example.  I guess next time I am in an opinion thread I'll be more gentle for the shortbus crowd.
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« Reply #173 on: November 28, 2019, 02:35:33 PM »

In all of this thread, I find it odd that the most offensive thing, to me, is that no one pointed out whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
So this is what you originally claimed. There's no Hitler speeches on White Power comp as far as I'm aware so I (and I think also Mikko) assumed you were talking about the MB releases. In which case the speeches were not added by Best. Do you still not understand that?
Instead of just admitting you're wrong you're now trying to morph your original claim into some weird deeper point, which also kind of fails because Mundy's interview is your only source and you're not even sure you can remember it correctly now.

The White Power compilation is a good example, because if any of those artists received negative attention from it without even volunteering to be part of that theme, if could have very real consequences.  If that happened in this current period especially.  I was just using it as an example to illustrate a deeper point, and it'd been brought up recently. 
(...)
If everyone on that White Power comp was on it fully knowing that this would be the theme, then it is not, afterall, a good example of my point, although I thought it was and I wish I had that issue of ALAP with me, regardless of whether or not Gary Mundy takes issue with it now or not. 

You might be right after all, so it would be good and interesting to see that interview. Cause otherwise it's unclear whether Mundy was complaining on behalf of other artists too or just on behalf of himself. You seemed so sure though that all the artists were fucked over by the theme and now you can't remember? Strange.

I'm not scatological enough for this petty bullshit to be "common knowledge". 
I was referring to the instance in which MB was fucked over by ComeOrg. as common knowledge. I admit that might be a stretch, after all I can only assume that people who listen to MB are aware of this. And this was your main concern (other artist's works being altered with without permission) no? So I don't know why you're calling it petty now.

If my point is still not clear, I'm not sure what else to say. 
Your point is very clear, it's just surrounded by speculation and misinformation.
You don't care about cryptofascism and that's fine, good for you.
To what you were addressing about altering artists material "in general" I agree with you although I think mixing speeches into someone else's music is far, far worse than putting an image of Hitler on a compilation cover.
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« Reply #174 on: November 28, 2019, 03:29:31 PM »

if any of those artists received negative attention

Well, you have to consider: Early 80's power electronics.
Look at the discographies of each band and make conclusions how big "offense" it must have been...

I would bet, that only thing what none of artists considered, was that teenage years provocation that potentially in wildest dreams effected handful of devotees of extreme electronics, would be STILL matter of discussion 40 years later.

And to return to topic of witch hunt, word generally means in modern usage, is metaphor to illustrating the brutal and ruthless way in which political opponents are denigrated and persecuted. Or from another angle, more recent, it's most of all method of gaining attention (clicks). Guys, who did enough research to be aware of that amount of details (like the retards of Quietus), they know how it is, but decide to run the story nevertheless from angle such as we usually see. It's not like they would not know what was White Power compilation or what Skullflower does. Their motivations are shameful and utterly exploitative, while behaving as the "good guys". If artists feel there is some sort of baggage, finger should point on people who clearly, without no doubt, choose to misinterpret the works for their own benefit and contribute to this odd mass psychosis.
Or just accept that this illustrates very well some of the conclusions of industrial music?
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« Reply #175 on: November 29, 2019, 09:43:54 AM »

Or just accept that this illustrates very well some of the conclusions of industrial music?

Haha, best comment on this thread so far.

On some of the points raised by others in this topic, I'm not sure if the "facts" as they have been represented- or remembered- matter as much as the shall we say poetic truth of the argument(s). Or to call it, the industrial music side of the debate.
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« Reply #176 on: November 29, 2019, 10:51:29 AM »

In all of this thread, I find it odd that the most offensive thing, to me, is that no one pointed out whether or not Phillip Best apologized for dumping Hitler speeches over other artists' work without permission.
So this is what you originally claimed. There's no Hitler speeches on White Power comp as far as I'm aware so I (and I think also Mikko) assumed you were talking about the MB releases. In which case the speeches were not added by Best. Do you still not understand that?
Instead of just admitting you're wrong you're now trying to morph your original claim into some weird deeper point, which also kind of fails because Mundy's interview is your only source and you're not even sure you can remember it correctly now.

The White Power compilation is a good example, because if any of those artists received negative attention from it without even volunteering to be part of that theme, if could have very real consequences.  If that happened in this current period especially.  I was just using it as an example to illustrate a deeper point, and it'd been brought up recently. 
(...)
If everyone on that White Power comp was on it fully knowing that this would be the theme, then it is not, afterall, a good example of my point, although I thought it was and I wish I had that issue of ALAP with me, regardless of whether or not Gary Mundy takes issue with it now or not. 

You might be right after all, so it would be good and interesting to see that interview. Cause otherwise it's unclear whether Mundy was complaining on behalf of other artists too or just on behalf of himself. You seemed so sure though that all the artists were fucked over by the theme and now you can't remember? Strange.

I'm not scatological enough for this petty bullshit to be "common knowledge". 
I was referring to the instance in which MB was fucked over by ComeOrg. as common knowledge. I admit that might be a stretch, after all I can only assume that people who listen to MB are aware of this. And this was your main concern (other artist's works being altered with without permission) no? So I don't know why you're calling it petty now.

If my point is still not clear, I'm not sure what else to say. 
Your point is very clear, it's just surrounded by speculation and misinformation.
You don't care about cryptofascism and that's fine, good for you.
To what you were addressing about altering artists material "in general" I agree with you although I think mixing speeches into someone else's music is far, far worse than putting an image of Hitler on a compilation cover.

As I said, if my memory is failing, I stand corrected, but the principle of being on a "white power" compilation (regardless of the discographies of the artists on them) without choosing to be on one is still relevant to my point, although it's not the same as dumping Hitler's speeches onto the audio, I'll give you that. 

 I'm not trying to spin my point.  I initially tried to be as concise as possible without elaborating too much.  My point stands.  If I find something offensive, by the way, it does not mean that I am personally offended, but I would be if it were me.  That's my concept of integrity.   Apparently we agree on that much.   I'm just willing to admit that I don't have the damn interview with me, and memory can be inaccurate.  You're not doing a very good job of making a straw man argument.  Time to go back to the drawing board.   Your argument is not that my point is not valid, then, but yet it is still "worthless". Well honestly, I'm just not seeing a whole lot of worthy points in this thread, and while I admit I'm more guilty of speculation than I thought I was, I'm not the only one. 

 I was just trying to add to the conversation in a way that brings up the question of why people are so offended by the haphazard use of some symbols rather than the haphazard use of other peoples' work in conjunction with those symbols (I'll remind you too that I wasn't the one who brought up Phillip Best), and I would add that various rip off artists don't seem to get this sort of "call out culture" treatment.  To me that is a misplacement of priorities on the part of media and culture in general, but that's because it's not as "juicy" as gossip goes.   I don't see people contacting Quietus about their irresponsible writing, I just see people speculating (and some whining) about the "injustice" of someone who has admittedly been "confrontational" in the past.  As far as Skullflower goes, it's not my place to decide what is "confrontational" about his work.  It's all regular fare at this point. 

So you see, it is not about me trying to backpedal into some "weird deeper point", my point is the same and it hasn't changed.   I just thought some people might take the conversation into something other than complaining, like for instance, the original meaning of the black sun symbol prior to it being co-opted by the Nazis...  or something.  Something other than pretend tough guys whining on behalf of someone they don't know, as if it gives them some vicarious credibility.  I'll give you some "weird deeper points":  My general qualm with Power Electronics is not the controversy, nor the subject matter, it's generally that pioneers are few and far between, and what's left are simple-minded, bottom-feeding muckrakers sucking the rotting teet of a bygone mythical golden age.   No offense to Skullflower or anyone else, but some of my favorite PE artists are such without any particular hot button shock value schtick, and I like plenty of nasty shit too.  I think that a true exploration of power dynamics needs to get deeper than what it has been doing for the last 20-30 years.   The claim that power electronics artists are "usually intelligent" does not hold up for me, but I believe at one point that it once did, and I'd like to see that day again.   There are a lot more ways of being "transgressive" than knee jerk reactions from outsiders and business as usual from insiders.

I find it funny that once people disagree, all of a sudden it is considered a "fight".   I don't disagree with Mikko at all, by the way, but ...would be STILL matter of discussion 40 years later. does lend creedence to the need for more responsibility.   Things did feel more free prior to the internet, but there were probably a lot more rip off artists, too.   
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« Reply #177 on: November 29, 2019, 04:06:58 PM »

Wow... Was this a shit fight about skullflower being dumped from a festival??
How did Mr FreakAnimalFinland get sucked into this. I thought he was better than that.
How did anybodies bullshit detectors not kick in until now???
Keep slapping each other, young fellas... snigga..
Don't worry honey, mommy & daddy aren't fighting, it's just a discussion. Everything will be fine!

You're not doing a very good job of making a straw man argument.  Time to go back to the drawing board.
Not trying to. Just pointing out what I perceived as inconsistencies in your argument.

I was just trying to add to the conversation in a way that brings up the question of why people are so offended by the haphazard use of some symbols rather than the haphazard use of other peoples' work in conjunction with those symbols
If you're sure about the artists on WP comp not being cool with the presentation based on that interview you read then I believe you. It is probably easier to mobilize people against the use of certain symbols and place it into a wider political narrative than to get them outraged over breaching artist consent. Stirring up the pot on both ends - obviously that quietus article is still being talked about which is sort of laughable.

My general qualm with Power Electronics is not the controversy, nor the subject matter, it's generally that pioneers are few and far between, and what's left are simple-minded, bottom-feeding muckrakers sucking the rotting teet of a bygone mythical golden age.  (...) I think that a true exploration of power dynamics needs to get deeper than what it has been doing for the last 20-30 years.   The claim that power electronics artists are "usually intelligent" does not hold up for me, but I believe at one point that it once did, and I'd like to see that day again.   There are a lot more ways of being "transgressive" than knee jerk reactions from outsiders and business as usual from insiders.
The lack of pioneers is something every music genre suffers from. I value similar things you mention above, however some people are satisfied with shallow crafting of subject matter (if any) into sound within PE style. I am aware that "shallow" is a value statement here since it lacks meaning and depth for me, personally. You might aswell use the term "different" instead for 'shocking' edgy artwork, skimask vocals through a rat over MS20 adhering to the same 20 y/o style that hasn't changed. I always try to keep in mind the possibility that new people are entering the scene all the time and basically just try to copy the styles of their favorite projects before they progress to a more unique sound.
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« Reply #178 on: November 30, 2019, 05:44:59 PM »

Well that was tedious and tiny bit off topic. Thought this threat was about current round of millennials being offended by the apparent rise of neo-nazis in the underground music scene
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« Reply #179 on: December 02, 2019, 10:53:14 AM »


Don't worry honey, mommy & daddy aren't fighting, it's just a discussion. Everything will be fine!
[/quote]

I hope you got a good root, mommy from your 'discussion'
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