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Author Topic: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)  (Read 10593 times)
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PTM Jim
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« Reply #90 on: August 16, 2019, 09:58:39 PM »

XE is sexual, not political. He has stated that, so that's what it is. Just as if an NSBM band is only such if they state they are.


I think that's a very ignorant and naive take judging people's intent only by what they say and disregarding other actions. So I can run around publically in a sailor moon costume, put out personal music covered with manga and tell you I'm not into anime and you will believe that? People lie all the time man. Of course it's sexual but looking at the lyrics, artwork, titles and denying any political influence is ridiculous.
I get that, completely, but the political aspect is like a vehicle. The whole point is paraphillia towards racism. Racism isn't necessarily politics also.
Plus his (or anyone's) personal preferences may or may not be reflected in the subject. There are plenty of things that are dedicated to to a certain subject, but the artist isn't into it personally.
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PTM Jim
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« Reply #91 on: August 16, 2019, 09:59:45 PM »

Oof.
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deutscheasphalt
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« Reply #92 on: August 16, 2019, 10:16:15 PM »

There are plenty of things that are dedicated to to a certain subject, but the artist isn't into it personally.


Sure, but if you don't make the audience know that by either creating the material in an unambiguous manner or publically explain what the intention is of dealing with that subject matter, most outsiders will assume what seems obvious to them. It seems short sighted to me to put swazis on your j-cards and then be surprised when the general public assumes racism. Not saying that anyone's doing that, if an artist gives zero fucks that's fine, but that attitude only works if you give zero fucks about your music being "misunderstood" also.
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FreakAnimalFinland
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« Reply #93 on: August 17, 2019, 10:55:58 AM »

XE being not political, is sort of obvious, until someone concludes that it is political act to cause change in people line of thinking. For example popularize dehumanization of people. Promote idea and cultural climate that it is ok to degrade, abuse and insult - perhaps just in art, but that may or may not bleed into "real life". Question is this promoting national socialism, should be easy. Is it promoting some sort of libertarianism, is much less obvious. Artists firm attitude that it is just fetishized and sexualized things, what appeal to his aesthetics, will not remove fact that someone will not approve it "publicly" displayed.

Generally it used to be understood that a lot of industrial music may not promote anything in particular, but present things that will make listener, and possibly artists himself, to ponder questions that formerly were thought to be obvious. When organizations like Varisverkosto, which is clearly made out of legit retards, do not get this element build inside industrial culture (or art in general), their input is just the fun times of seeing cheapest provocations work like charm. First step to experience this type of art should be ability to step beyond being provoked. If you can not go pass being provoked, I doubt you could face the actual questions established about wide variety of themes that common man doesn't want to deal with, but which in reality we live in, would require to be re-evaluated.

I would think that beauty of projects like XE is, that it can be so much more, than it intends to be. Same goes for a lot of the best industrial/noise works out there.



 
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Goat93
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« Reply #94 on: August 17, 2019, 11:11:11 AM »

Maybe the word "provocation" is missused a lot and maybe it changed the meaning of its definition over the time but in the former definition it is a call to action. if someone is provoacted, he is advised to react to this provocation with all means nessecary. Antifa is the living reaction of provocation and the whole ideology is build up on this fact. There will never be a sense of understanding or selecting as long a provoaction is held up in front of the public work

The Ideology and the real Intention of the Artist doesn't matter. The Product is what matters and will be judged.
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FreakAnimalFinland
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« Reply #95 on: August 17, 2019, 12:31:02 PM »

Maybe the word "provocation" is missused a lot and maybe it changed the meaning of its definition over the time but in the former definition it is a call to action.

I don't think it is "misused". It just has different meanings depending on context:

1a : to call forth (a feeling, an action, etc.) : evoke
b : to stir up purposely
c : to provide the needed stimulus for  (will provoke a lot of discussion)
 
2a : to incite to anger   


I think most of noise/industrial content fits to any listed meanings in category 1. I don't think there is much point in attempt to incite anger and opposition, when we're talking about releases one needs to dig deep, and make conscious attempts to be exposed to. It is there rather to evoke feelings, stimulus, curiosity, new perspective, etc..  that is most of all positive if you ask me.

Attempt to incite to anger seems to be the old school of industrial when it was often performed to unprepared audience who had no idea what they were to experience. Nowadays both audience and methods are not like that anymore.
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deutscheasphalt
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« Reply #96 on: August 17, 2019, 01:49:05 PM »

You could argue that even in the oldschool days provocation wasn't always the intent but a byproduct of said audience being exposed to "extreme" material. It only takes someone to feel provoked or offended and provocation is created without any intent. Which is most likely exactly what happens nowadays when an outsider stumbles upon ambiguous material, "in you face" artwork or whatever.
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l.b.
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« Reply #97 on: August 17, 2019, 05:25:10 PM »

provokatsiya is of course a cornerstone of, and holdover from, soviet-era military intelligence; pro-democratic, separatist and nationalist movements during soviet times were all labelled "provocative," and not just in the sense of eliciting emotion. to provoke people to think differently, act differently, it's like terrorism. the charge is that some intelligence service (namely CIA) is secretly promoting these events, from prague spring to tiananmen square. the fear is that small groups of dedicated individuals can inflict widespread change thru extravagant breaches of normality, like Laibach's concert and tv appearance in '83 which led to them being banned by socialist authorities of Yugoslavia.
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Balor/SS1535
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« Reply #98 on: August 17, 2019, 07:14:54 PM »

could never see BU, or even XE, as political in the slightest..

That was always my impression.  I think that noise/power electronics are often so alienating to many people that they would almost automatically be apolitical.  Unlike some NSBM or RAC, it would be difficult to build a sustainable and widely appealing political platform from it.


Just because there's no widespread known subgenres in noise/PE that include promoting political ideologies doesn't mean the entire genre is apolitical

Let me rephrase.  You are right.  There are many ways to be political.  I am sure that there are many noise/PE musicians that send political messages through their music, and in that sense these genres can definitely be political.  They can also be political by the very fact that they represent a profound refutation of everyday ideas about music and culture.  However, I think that they are also often apolitical in another sense.  Given the harsh and transgressive nature of noise and PE, I would expect that many (perhaps even most) people would find them unappealing or downright unnerving.  In that respect I think that it would be very difficult to use them to further any popular political movement.
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deutscheasphalt
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« Reply #99 on: August 17, 2019, 07:39:07 PM »

could never see BU, or even XE, as political in the slightest..

That was always my impression.  I think that noise/power electronics are often so alienating to many people that they would almost automatically be apolitical.  Unlike some NSBM or RAC, it would be difficult to build a sustainable and widely appealing political platform from it.


Just because there's no widespread known subgenres in noise/PE that include promoting political ideologies doesn't mean the entire genre is apolitical

Let me rephrase.  You are right.  There are many ways to be political.  I am sure that there are many noise/PE musicians that send political messages through their music, and in that sense these genres can definitely be political.  They can also be political by the very fact that they represent a profound refutation of everyday ideas about music and culture.  However, I think that they are also often apolitical in another sense.  Given the harsh and transgressive nature of noise and PE, I would expect that many (perhaps even most) people would find them unappealing or downright unnerving.  In that respect I think that it would be very difficult to use them to further any popular political movement.


I agree for the most part, however I don't think you would catch people who view noise as unappealing for any political movement in the first place. As music gets more extreme it would make sense to me that it has the potential to attract people who share more extreme political stances with a higher percentage (since it filters out & excludes "normies" maybe?) and from my personal observation this seems to be the case anecdotally speaking. Whether fueling any political movement with the ability to be influential out of this is possible depends on the number of people and I don't see that ever happening in PE.
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Duncan
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« Reply #100 on: August 17, 2019, 08:01:53 PM »

What nobody wants to talk about is how critics, fans and even artists grossly overestimate the power, impact and success of all this 'provocation' - intended or otherwise.  It seems like much of the discourse surrounding these topics come from a massively inflated sense of how effective or believable this supposed.  Absolutely nobody seems prepared to examine this shit on it's own terms i.e. as art but with the view to critique how well all these alleged intentions and/or aesthetics actually work. 

And I get it, because the truth is a lot more painful and boring than whatever narrative either end of this pathetic, endless argument has to offer - imagine if, after a little introspection, it emerged that everything we're talking about here could be boiled down to inward facing performance of genre and subculture?  A lot of people would be lost without their hill to die on.
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deutscheasphalt
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« Reply #101 on: August 17, 2019, 08:30:15 PM »

Absolutely nobody seems prepared to examine this shit on it's own terms i.e. as art but with the view to critique how well all these alleged intentions and/or aesthetics actually work.  


I completely agree. Noone is prepared to examine this. Because it is impossible.
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Duncan
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« Reply #102 on: August 17, 2019, 09:33:12 PM »

Absolutely nobody seems prepared to examine this shit on it's own terms i.e. as art but with the view to critique how well all these alleged intentions and/or aesthetics actually work.  


I completely agree. Noone is prepared to examine this. Because it is impossible.

I don’t think it would be impossible, I just think it’d require too much interrogation about how surface level and insincere a lot of the music and proclaimed symbolism is than either the dedicated fan or the offended blogger is really prepared to enter into.

Everyone seems quite happy on their respective side of the fence tbh and I think those that truly have a dog in the race would secretly hate it if they had nothing to think they were kicking against.
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Goat93
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« Reply #103 on: Today at 10:19:59 AM »

What nobody wants to talk about is how critics, fans and even artists grossly overestimate the power, impact and success of all this 'provocation' - intended or otherwise.  It seems like much of the discourse surrounding these topics come from a massively inflated sense of how effective or believable this supposed.  Absolutely nobody seems prepared to examine this shit on it's own terms i.e. as art but with the view to critique how well all these alleged intentions and/or aesthetics actually work. 

And I get it, because the truth is a lot more painful and boring than whatever narrative either end of this pathetic, endless argument has to offer - imagine if, after a little introspection, it emerged that everything we're talking about here could be boiled down to inward facing performance of genre and subculture?  A lot of people would be lost without their hill to die on.

Actualy i try to get to the Step further. How works this Stuff for People who doesn't care about all this Shit and just react to the Stuff in the Way it differs from their Views?
Does someone really believe that the Critics will listen to explanations or will change their Offense behaviour cause of "misinterpretations"?

And the Line between Art and Seriousity is the Interesting Point for the spreading. if there is no "fear" of seriousity, nobody would care about it
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