Misanthropy

Started by Andrew McIntosh, February 20, 2015, 11:59:04 AM

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Bloated Slutbag

#30
Quote from: bitewerksMTB on February 21, 2015, 02:50:05 AM
Thomas Ligotti is considered a misanthropist. I know I've read one or two books of short stories but they didn't make much of an impression. "True Detective" was influenced by Ligotti's work (I hated TD).

The full force of Ligotti's anger/negativism/misanthropy/whatever (I think he generally refers to it as "pessimism") tends to come through with far greater clarity in his interviews. And his non-fiction magnus opus "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race". Spoiler alert: the conspiracy is evident in all manifestations of the lie that life is worth living, if I'm reading it right. (What I like best about TCATHR is that, throughout the text, he continuously refers to consciousness/life/nature as MALIGNANTLY USELESS, in block caps.)

Here's an interview on TCATHR:
http://mumpsimus.blogspot.jp/2007/10/conversation-with-thomas-ligotti.html

Of his fiction, the later writings, particularly Teatro Grottesco, are well superior to the earlier work such as Songs Of A Dead Dreamer.

"My body — a tumor that was once delivered from the body of another tumor, a lump of disease that is always boiling with its own disease. And my mind — another disease, the disease of a disease. Everywhere my mind sees the disease of other minds and other bodies, these other organisms that are only other diseases, an absolute nightmare of the organism." -Teatro Grottesco

Ligotti has also turned me on to several writers, including Thomas Bernhard here mentioned. Bernhard's fiction, which often takes the form of first person extended rant, is probably the most singularly angry (and entertaining!) I've ever encountered.

Of those unmentioned, may I highly recommend the Polish writer Stanislaw Ignacy Witkiewicz. From another recent Ligotti interview:

"As for Witkiewicz, I tend to admire and identify with writers who commit suicide, and he killed himself in really grand style....Ultimately, the most encompassing description of Witkiewicz's work that I can offer is that they are the most nihilistic I've ever read."

edit
Regarding the TD plagiarism controversy, see:

http://lovecraftzine.com/2014/08/04/did-the-writer-of-true-detective-plagiarize-thomas-ligotti-and-others/

(I never watched the show, nor will I, but I think the above article + video doesn't go far enough. I'd guess that the many interviews available online could be mined, very quickly- say, by some hack working against a deadline - for several quotations similar to those cited. Even a casual Ligotti reader will automatically recognize the style. As Ligotti puts it in an interview, "Style is the intersection between an author's choice of subject matter and what he does with that subject matter." Note also that the script writer did acknowledge the Ligotti inflence in early interviews but once the word "plagiarism" started floating around the only squeak on the subject was a very terse, lawyerly statement. No doubts in my mind, though I am obviously a biased fan whose views are therefore to be discounted.)
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Andrew McIntosh

Shikata ga nai.

Andrew McIntosh

Interesting how devoutly religious people can be the most misanthropic.

http://www.occidentalenclave.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=478

Quote(T)he curse must be aimed most directly and obviously at man: the avenging angle circles like the sun around this unhappy globe and lets one nation breathe only to strike at others. But when crimes, especially those of a particular kind, accumulate to a certain point, the angel relentlessly quickens his tireless flight. Like a rapidly turned torch, his immense speed allows him to be present at all points on his huge orbit at the same time. He strikes every nation on earth at the same moment. At other times, minister of an unerring and infallible vengeance, he turns against particular nations and bathes them in blood. Do not expect them to make any effort to escape or abridge their sentence. It is as if these sinful nations, enlightened by conscience, were asking for punishment and accepting it in order to find expiation in it. So long as they have blood left, they will come forward to offer it, and soon golden youth will grow used to telling of devastating wars caused by their fathers' crimes.


War is thus divine in itself, since it is a law of the world.
Shikata ga nai.

cr

It must have been 10+ years since I read it the last time, but today I'm in the mood to start reading "Les Chants de Maldoror" again.

HongKongGoolagong

Re-read Sarah Kane's 4:48 Psychosis for the first time in a while.

http://rlmalvin.angelfire.com/KaneSarah448Psychosis.pdf

l.b.

Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on July 18, 2015, 11:03:55 AM
Interesting how devoutly religious people can be the most misanthropic.

http://www.occidentalenclave.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=478

Quote(T)he curse must be aimed most directly and obviously at man: the avenging angle circles like the sun around this unhappy globe and lets one nation breathe only to strike at others. But when crimes, especially those of a particular kind, accumulate to a certain point, the angel relentlessly quickens his tireless flight. Like a rapidly turned torch, his immense speed allows him to be present at all points on his huge orbit at the same time. He strikes every nation on earth at the same moment. At other times, minister of an unerring and infallible vengeance, he turns against particular nations and bathes them in blood. Do not expect them to make any effort to escape or abridge their sentence. It is as if these sinful nations, enlightened by conscience, were asking for punishment and accepting it in order to find expiation in it. So long as they have blood left, they will come forward to offer it, and soon golden youth will grow used to telling of devastating wars caused by their fathers' crimes.


War is thus divine in itself, since it is a law of the world.

J. de Maistre is the best. Another quote from him:

Quote"Who is this inexplicable being, who, when there are so many agreeable, lucrative, honest, and even honorable professions to choose among, in which a man can exercise his skill or his powers, has chosen that of torturing or killing his own kind? This head, this heart, are they made like our own? Is there not something in them that is peculiar, alien to our nature? Myself, I have no doubt about this. He is made like us externally. He is born like all of us. But he is an extraordinary being, and it needs a special decree to bring him into existence as a member of the human family—a  fiat of creative power. He is created like a law unto himself [...] God, who has created sovereignty, has also made punishment [...]"

Andrew McIntosh

Shikata ga nai.

Andrew McIntosh

Finally got stuck into Ligotti's "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race" and as satisfactorily pessimistic as it is I get the underlying impression that his desire for omnicide is from compassion for humanity's suffering rather than contempt for humanity's existence. It's just fortunate that he is open about the fact that voluntary human extinction is totally off the collective agenda (consciously, at least) and that we will continue to live and suffer until we finally die, both individually and as a species. Also, he's writing for the sake of getting shit out of his system and into the public, which I applaud.
Shikata ga nai.

Bleak Existence

i like the review of that book will buy it soon

Bloated Slutbag

#39
Quote from: Andrew McIntosh on September 05, 2015, 04:48:52 PM
Finally got stuck into Ligotti's "The Conspiracy Against The Human Race" and as satisfactorily pessimistic as it is I get the underlying impression that his desire for omnicide is from compassion for humanity's suffering rather than contempt for humanity's existence.

I do often wonder about that. Have often wondered. Not to say that Ligotti's protestations on the side of compassion are insincere. This is the guy who once quipped (though I emphasize "quipped"), "I politically self-identify as a socialist. I want everyone to be as comfortable as they can be while they're waiting to die." I have no reason not to take him at his word.

But it is comments like the following which set the internal wheels in motion:

"Nabokov's statement that portraying an atheist as a decent person is a taboo subject in literature betrays his stance as someone who felt atheism to be an unjustly persecuted intellectual posture."

This is taken from what is probably Ligotti's most infamous interview, "Literature Is Entertainment Or It it Nothing",  which road tests a lot of the ideas to be explored in TCATHR. Ligotti has repeatedly made clear, over the course of several interviews, that he feels pessimism to be an unjustly persecuted intellectual posture. What tends to follow is a shit-ton of words that might, en masse, amount to a shit-ton of pro-pessimist PR.

Before TCATHR was published, a pdf of the work-in-progress was made available to anyone registered to the ligotti.net fansite. Aside from containing one glaringly not-particularly-publishable (or at least, no particularly pluralist) choice of words, "corrected" in the published version (the surprise or shock registered by some readers was described by Ligotti as "exactly" the reaction he had intended...), the pdf contained several indexed quotations from one UG Krishnamurti. "UG" is a man, now deceased, who apparently claimed to have achieved ego-death- a man, in other words, who gave even less fuck than THIS GUY.  He comes off as quite a character, but the essence of his point, on the subject of ego-death, comes to this: "Yes, I really did achieve ego-death. No, I have no idea how that came about. It was pure fluke. No, you cannot do anything about it. I got lucky. You all are fucked. Now piss off, there's really nothing I can say to you that will help you except to repeat, ad nauseam: 'you all are fucked.'" I may be gravely misrepresenting UG's statements. But the fact that Ligotti chose such quotations for his magnum-opus-in-progress speaks volumes I think. If there are to be words of compassion from him, it is because there is, most assuredly, nothing to be had beyond lip service on the subject. We are all fucked. Now piss off.

(Heh. Just pulled this up from UG's wiki: "I am forced by the nature of your listening to always negate the first statement with another statement. Then the second statement is negated by a third and so on. My aim is not some comfy dialectical thesis but the total negation of everything that can be expressed." Think I will be reading more UG in the future.)

Ligotti's compassion is often set up in opposition to forces typically regarded as pro-human or pro-life. That is to say, in opposition to the merciless forces of positivity (of creativity*), of nature. At the end of his short story "Sideshow, and Other Stories" the narrator overcomes his crippling writer's block, an ending which one interviewer describes as "unfamiliarly positive". TL offers the following analysis: "To my mind, the narrator's eagerness to continue writing is actually quite monstrous. At the same time, it is, as you say, very positive. In my observation, the most monstrous and vile people are those who are filled with energy and confidence. The more energy and confidence they have, the more monstrous they are. These people make life miserable for those of us who have doubts about everything we do and above all about existence itself."

Going back to the quip: "I politically self-identify as a socialist. I want everyone to be as comfortable as they can be while they're waiting to die."
It continues thusly:
"Unfortunately, the major part of Western civilization consists of capitalists, whom I regard as unadulterated savages. As long as we have to live in this world, what could be more sensible than to want yourself and others to suffer as little as possible? This will never happen because too many people are unadulterated savages. They're brutal and inhuman. Case in point: Why is euthanasia so despised?Answer: Because too many people are barbaric sons of bitches."

I can (and will, with little encouragement) go on endlessly, but this quotation from short story "The Shadow, The Darkness" might endarkenate:
"There could never be anything written about the 'conspiracy against the human race' because the phenomenon of a conspiracy requires a multiplicity of agents, a division of sides, one of which is undermining the other in some way and the other having an existence that is able to be undermined. But there is no such multiplicity or division, no undermining or resistance or betrayal on either side. What exists is only this pulling, this tugging upon all the bodies of this world. But these bodies have a collective existence only in a taxonomic or perhaps a topographical sense and in no way constitute a collective entity, an agency that might be the object of a conspiracy. And a collective entity called the human race cannot exist where there is only a collection of non-entities, of bodies which are themselves only provisional and will be lost one by one, the whole collection of them always approaching nonsense, always dissolving in dreams.
"...There was only this consuming, proliferating blackness whose only true and final success was in merely perpetuating itself as successfully as it could in a world where nothing exists that could ever hope to be anything else except what it needs to thrive upon."
(A wee bit more discussion on the above HERE.


* noise is entertainment or it is nothing?
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

bitewerksMTB

"I politically self-identify as a socialist. I want everyone to be as comfortable as they can be while they're waiting to die."

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/05/americas/venezuela-expensive-condoms-shortage/index.html

Bloated Slutbag

...but I would agree that Ligotti does not come off as particularly misanthropic. Still it is hard to deny that a lot of these characters -pessimists, nihilists, miserablists - tend to speak the same language. Ligotti eventually gave up trying to reject accusations that he was a "nihilist" (or any other appellation one might care to pin), turning about to readily and regularly conflate the whole brood with whom he identifies as those who would question the cherished notion that life is worth living. (Words to this effect,  credited to Ray Brassier, appear on the TCATHR dust-jacket.) So take your pick. Misanthropist, socialist, pessimist, nihilist, antihumanist,  miserablist, depressive, hater. Go right ahead. I'm just gratified whenever someone has the "audacity" to shit on the common story.

It may also be worth noting, as Ligotti has, that the negatorian, the EM Cioran, the Thomas Bernhard, the Brassier... must necessarily write with a "sterling and entertaining prose" (says the shameless hack).

Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Andrew McIntosh

Appreciate Bloated Slutbag's thoughts.

There's a lot of over-lap between the labels, certainly, although I think there are still some distinctions. Personally I quite like the notion of "miserablism", which is, as I understand it, almost an enjoyment of the negative attitude one takes towards everything.

It might be because I started out as an idealist then burnt out, but I'm seeing something of that in Ligotti, too. His attitude towards humanity definitely seems one more of pity and sympathy than disgust, which was much more the attitude Lovecraft took (I don't want to downplay his racism but I tend to see that as more a part of his general misanthropy). Wanting to end it all because one wants to end suffering is still wanting to end suffering.

What I dig is that he doesn't take some bullshit "above it all" attitude.  To him, a human's still a human, which is a reasonable call. I notice in the interview you mention he talks of taking anti-depressants, so he's open about suffering from depression enough to want to do something about it. That's also perfectly reasonable, although in my view there comes a time when, if you do have depression, you need to grasp the black dog by the tail and admit that it is a part of you that will never be "cured". This is where a sardonic attitude towards one's own disgust at everything can help, at least for a while.

I also dig that he admits omnicide will never happen voluntarily (although there are plenty of other options) for the reasons he wants it to. He admits his extremism is just that, and takes no romantic notion towards it.

Interesting the concept of entertainment is brought up. I'm all for it. When you reject any notion of any out-and-out "truths" to strive towards, you may as well get off on what you can. Noise is entertainment or nothing? I think so, as long as one realises that there is such a thing as good entertainment.
Shikata ga nai.

deadprint

Quote from: Peterson on February 20, 2015, 06:07:36 PM
Martin Scorcese's 1976 masterpiece "Taxi Driver." My VHS copy reads "A Psychotic Cab Driver Is Driven To Violence" as the description. If you haven't already seen it, it's got everything you're looking for.

My favorite film as a teenager.

Quote from: bitewerksMTB on February 21, 2015, 02:50:05 AM
Thomas Ligotti is considered a misanthropist. I know I've read one or two books of short stories but they didn't make much of an impression. "True Detective" was influenced by Ligotti's work (I hated TD).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Ligotti

"Songs of a Dead Dreamer" is the book I know I've read. It may be the only one. I'd like to read the book TD took the stick-figures from but most of his books are high priced.

I find many of his short stories to be quite good, some are great.  Certain stories such as "The Last Feast Of Harlequin" and "The Medusa" have left a major impression.

I believe Ligotti has mentioned his fondness for Emil Cioran

cr

#44
Bought 'Grimscribe' some weeks ago. I'm curious to read it.