lack of support on new & currently active?

[FreakAnimalFinland]

EDIT: This topic was split from Xn Recordings topic. I don't know what exactly would be good name for it...

There are handful of labels out there who seem to rely on limitation or packaging. I am sure, that there is a big ( "big" )collector market where it means that people buy material for other than listening purpose.
Someone to pack things into sweet wood box with etched copper plate won't make music any better (this matter could be debated, though, since why make cover if it doesn't affect anything?), but these things seem to sell for quite wild prices.

I do find it little disturbing that "new comers" or "less cult bands" wouldn't be worthy of little investment. While cult names can produce whatever (see Jackman topic elsewhere), and turds are served with golden decorations to hungry crowd. Major blame could be on customers. Who's ready to pay 10-20€ for Mutant Ape 7" with neat packaging? Even if it quaranteedly would be better than a lot of famous things out there. Some bands are already rated in peoples minds to certain categories. Where Prurient tape can be 20$, but Stimbox can't. Where 1 minute Jackman 7" is ok, but someone else doing it would be simply laughed out. And it's not even matter who is better or worse, but categories similar to comic book and photobook. Where first, despite how good it is, how big, and how labor heavy can't be more than 5-20,- while photobook of same or smaller size is 5 times higher price. Both enjoyed, both great. But different category.  The typical noise release seems to be like comic book. Everybody likes, but not wanting really to pay for it in same way as for something slightly "high art".

Reality of today simply is brutal in expenses (in case of vinyl) and reality seems to be that item is expensive or it doesn't exist at all. Which seems to mean the huge lack of PE / industrial noise vinyl releases, since I don't see the crowd who are ready to pay 20€ + shipping for something like... lets say YAO 91404 D. Which would be great, but perhaps unsellable to modern collectors market.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

That is a thread in itself. The investing in safe and very boring bets as opposed to giving the time and attention to the here and now groups. It goes way beyond the genres discussed here.

The so called undergound is littered with safe labels who'll do 300 LP's by reunion bands like SKULLFLOWER or RAMLEH and not give a flying fuck about new bands trying to build their thing. Same goes for the endless golden oldies tours with either tired old bands still limping on who'll tour their first two (good) albums in their entirety or straight up reunion shit that sucks turd. 50+ people turned up to see IRM, GRUNT, KOEFF, PESTDEMON and myself in Malmo whereas I'm sure RAMLEH packed out the Grosvenor in London last week. People go with the safe and what they've heard of about rather than spend time and money on bands that are happening here and now. It's a sad state of affairs and I blame both labels and fans.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Perhaps soon to be splitted into own topic.. "appreciation of currently happening things?"

But lets continue off topic here for a while. It is relative too. I remember when Mutant Ape, Shift, Grunt, S.O.F.A., and who else was it? In Leeds. Thursday. Was there 24 people? Next day, friday. Should be much better crowd. Small Cruel Party, Third Organ, DAS SYNTHETISCHE MISCHGEWEBE, and few more. Much bigger, much more well known names. And how much people? 7 or was it even 11 who paid in? We're talking about international event with veterans from 80's and 90's who are established names all over the place. And no crowd interested at all. And all of these guys are not on cumback tour. They've been around & active all the time working hard for stuff they do. And did it well.

With current rise of interest on Ramleh, I don't think their success is so big that it has any damage on the rest. It barely sells few hundred as far as I know about editions they press. You can get their old rock era 7"s for very nice prices. And so on. I have sold more Shift "bulk" than new Ramleh double CD re-issue. Which is great. Or lets say 1st disc amazing, 2nd disc not so much. When their comeback show was in NYC, huge amount of people simple walked out after Wolf Eyes. Not careing less about whatever is coming as headliner. I don't see that bands like Ramleh would take much attention from new bands, I feel its more like assumption that it would have to be so. While reality might be that unless material is marketable outside core of noise/pe, it can't attrack large audience. Therefore something with historical merit, genre defining qualities, qualities that can be seen as interesting phenomena by outsider, some sort of marketablity... those are all what sells the band to audience. It seems idealistic to think "good music" would be what counts. But of course, to pursue to promote such idealism is necessary from point of view of sound enthusiast who couldn't care less for who and what is hyped now.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

The weakest point in my argument is that I don't know how many turned up to see RAMLEH last week. It may also be that the genre is too small for anyone, even big names from the past, to pull anything of note. I still think the reunion craze of the last ten years seems to echo in our little scene as well.

[Max]

It may also be that the genre is too small for anyone, even big names from the past, to pull anything of note.

this is it. i have a strong feeling that the size of the crowd has much more to do with promotion than "big" names. also crossover-appeal is one thing, but booking a "noisy indie group" on a noise bill can (and probably WILL) fuck up the party.

[Bloated Slutbag]

i have a strong feeling that the size of the crowd has much more to do with promotion than "big" names.

Seconded. Promotion & Venue + A Big Name are usually sufficient guarantors of reliable turnout. Name alone means squat.

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

That would be the logical way to look at it but in my experience it seems the turnout depends much more on who is organising than who is playing.

[XE]

When their comeback show was in NYC, huge amount of people simple walked out after Wolf Eyes. Not careing less about whatever is coming as headliner.

At Nosturi Helsinki 2007  I walked away after GRUNT not caring the headliner WOLF EYES...

[GEWALTMONOPOL]

When their comeback show was in NYC, huge amount of people simple walked out after Wolf Eyes. Not careing less about whatever is coming as headliner.

At Nosturi Helsinki 2007  I walked away after GRUNT not caring the headliner WOLF EYES...

Thus we begin to touch on the difference between Evropa and America.

[Nyodene D]

There's a lot of good American P.E. and industrial being produced by young people that gets looked over quite a bit as well, stuff that isn't merely "blast of noise + vocals". 

For example, Vomit Arsonist, Sewer Goddess, Bereft, Xiphoid Dementia (not really new, but young), Koufar, Skin Graft, Ascites...etc

Many of them are much more rhythm + synths + noise (aka "Euro" style) and deserve to be mentioned in this thread.

/apologist rant.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Not really. You could still say that W.E. was most popular of the evening. Most people came to see them, and they played loudest.
Difference is that in Finland, Grunt has "following" of perhaps 20-50 people at max. Optimistically. While Wolf Eyes one and only show will attract couple hundred who want to see what's all the fuss is about.

I think most of things go down to realities which are similar to things what plague everything in modern world. Never ending stream of entertainment and opportunities. To get noise LP, used to be "special". Or to get CD. Even more special was to withness live show. When suddenly we live in times when you have to choose which show of the day you go to. Valuate your money which out of several dozen releases just came out, reality just is that not all can succeed. Someone will be always the one that doesn't get attention. Just too many things, and not only noise. Everything competing of persons attention.

I have no envy on Wolf Eyes, Ramleh, Whitehouse or whatever for them their success. Most of the guys did so much more and so much higher quality than anyone else, that it would be strange if their success wasn't what it was. I know how it is to do & try, but never really go anywhere success wise (haha!), but I can't see that as some sort of goal even in first place.

[Nyodene D]

From an American perspective, I've noticed that there's a weird trend in American indie that is using "noise" to describe fuzzy, lo-fi, grainy, shittily-played punk and garage rock.  On the same token, there's a huge boom in psychedelic noise bands getting big in indie crowds (check out labels Not Not Fun, Woodsist, Fuck It Tapes, etc).  Comes from a more freak-folk angle than industrial with their style of noise. Just peculiar that most of the extreme stuff got passed over (what little that didn't had its heyday about a decade ago).

As a person who organizes both noise, industrial and experimental shows as well as mainstream indie rock gigs, it's funny you should mention "indie noise band" on the bill with industrial or, at least, traditional noise groups.  The draw is much bigger for "indie noise" right now in America, and it's taking precedent over a lot of the industrial guys.  Keep in mind, America also has the idiots at Pitchfork lording over what's bookable and what's "out".  It's a real shame, especially because I can book a sick industrial show and get less than a quarter of the attendance i'd get if I booked certain indie noise bands (regardless of my feelings on them...frankly, I don't have much of a problem with most psych noise.  I enjoy a lot of it.)

Dunno what it really is about America right now.  Keep in mind much of the American noise scene that is getting really big is mostly young, West Coast kids who are doing basically weird psych rock.  It's a generation's redefinition of noise, I suppose. Many of the people on this board and who are active in the Euro PE scene were around to witness at least the 90s wave of PE/Death Industrial that influenced so much of their sound.    

That said, I'm 21 and personally love old-school noise and p.e. and reflect it in my project and the projects I usually work with.  

[Bloated Slutbag]

i have a strong feeling that the size of the crowd has much more to do with promotion than "big" names.

Seconded. Promotion & Venue + A Big Name are usually sufficient guarantors of reliable turnout. Name alone means squat.

That would be the logical way to look at it but in my experience it seems the turnout depends much more on who is organising than who is playing.

I would file "who is organizing" under the broader umbrella of promotion (with or without the capital "P"), so it seems we are in agreement...? ("+ A Big Name" uses "+" to infer afterthought, to make this post as ugly as humanly possible)

[Strömkarlen]

What is a "indie noise band"? Just curious which bands you are refering to. Bloodyminded?

The only band I could think of here that would fit that category in Sweden would be Ättestupa. Mainly because they are the only noise related band over here that have had a hype surrounding them and got good reviews in the mainstream music press.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

I think there is also a lot about where its done. Any kind of show in venue which has audience regarless who plays. I don't know if this type of places exists all over the world, but you can basically point out venues/bars/clubs where all the "underground people" hang out. When you go to UK, and show is arranged in... like "Sir Elwoods Old Tavern" -type of places, it's hard to imagine there would be anyone but the die hard followers there. No people who just happen to be there. Not perhaps collectors or consumers, but people open to experience any type of undeground live music.

I have organised couple of shows just by myself. In 1998 I did Freak Animal Fest #1, we had 100 people. All kinds of underground kids who saw the posters on streets and lots of people around finland who came to see thing what rarely happened. This was in non-alcohol youth house venue... Which seems like impossible scenario today.
In 2008 fest #2 with c. 140 people. Again, I would say perhaps 70 at max. was "noise crowd". Rest must have been just curious local people checking out show and people just entering in. Having like 60 year old grandmother clapping hands in excitement when Bizarre Uproar climax 3 nude male asses get spanked with belt by mrs. bizarre. hah. She paid in 7€. And seemed to like what she saw. If this was some "ug show for die hard only", we would have had maybe 30-40 people there.
When S.I.C.K. organises shows, I think there has always been good crowd. About 60-80 paid in. Just for vile noise/pe assaults? It thanks to venues popular among ug people, shows promoted to noise, metal and punk scenes, through forums, mailinglists and direct e-mails. It may be easier in smaller countries and cities like ours, when it is actually possible to do it.


For about 10 years now I have been thinking and talking of cross-over live shows. Where PE, noise, free-psych-folk, improv or whatever would be together. It's fact that for most of time, if there's fest with more than 5 bands, it's hard to watch all without wanting to also socialize with other people you rarely see. With some genres you don't care about, there would be no need to watch all, but enough to have value for money. Perhaps more crowd, when people who would come for simple filthy noise would come for other things. Or myself, who won't necessary go to see ________ but it it comes as "side kick", I may still enjoy it. Cultural differences might be big, and people don't feel associated with each other, but it's not like we're talking about utmost opposites one couldn't handle when necessary. It's just a live show, not like getting married.

What is a "indie noise band"? Just curious which bands you are refering to. Bloodyminded?

The only band I could think of here that would fit that category in Sweden would be Ättestupa. Mainly because they are the only noise related band over here that have had a hype surrounding them and got good reviews in the mainstream music press.

Does "indie" require attention from mainstream press to qualify?
I think, when "indie" is mentioned by person who comes from PE/harsh noise, he doesn't mean "independent music" or "independent labels" or whatever. He means the emo boys, college experimental rock droners, cool scene guys. Insulting term most of all, hah... 

But seriously, I may be wrong, but I would guess myself that it refers to people who approach noise as it was continuation of "alternative rock" and intentionally different. Performing rockn'roll PE, performing "jams", performing loud noise with no intent other than blast some cool sounds. Aesthetically being very... "indie". It may be hard to explain, but I came across this amusing rant re-posted in blog:
http://nickheer.com/blog/the-problem-with-indie-hipsters/ 

Indie kids need special 'indified' versions of other genres in order to render them listenable, as they simply can't handle those same genres in their raw, pure, (and unfashionable) forms.

Which is something, I can agree. I see indified black metal, indified punk, indified noise, indified PE... Not that it all would be good, but in case of rejecting history and aesthetic of for example Power Electronics or Industrial-noise, I feel that it doesn't turn into healthy progression, but often perhaps even the opposite. Nevertheless, in context of live gigs, I don't oppose at all teaming up with success of indie music. To isolate completely into tiny fractions leads to suffocating death.