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Human Larvae
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« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2011, 11:23:41 PM »

When you read his statements, it's easy to see which are among his consistent motivations and when he simply changes tools/tactics necessary to gain what he wants to?

Many of these matters, are still results of pen works of eccentric artists, most of all. Not necessary philosopher, not necessary theologist, etc. but really more of eccentric artists going through internal studies and observations. Does it make it less? ...or more?


Isn't this all pretty hypocritical thou? Abusing religion to forcefully revive virtues in society? Islam won't change western civilisation no matter how hard they try. Which bandwagon will he jump on then? 
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« Reply #31 on: May 04, 2011, 10:06:11 PM »

Hypocritical how? I mean, I wouldn't personally give slightest "support" for Islam, whether it works for the "cause" or not.
But his logic is clear and very simple. Aim is pretty much the same. When thinking of spending all your life within "organizations" of 1-10 people making mess, I guess islam could be seen as force what has much more potential. If not immediately, still most certainly just about only religion in world left with necessary hostility and commitments AND internal global support within group of people it relates to.

In moment when someone knows that nothing is going to make difference, is the point when values start to matter. If it would be easy and simple, it wouldn't need conviction. In this field we talk about, "occult & esoteric", so much is wasted on the idea of quick achievements. As if reading a book, signing up on online study group or getting some "points" when advancing on "levels" would mean much, when motivations are most of all impure. Path that's the hamburger route, just isn't going to lead anywhere. What would be the hidden information you gain with reading couple PDF's linked in occult blog? Perhaps inspiring on some level, of course, but still very little compared to journey.
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Human Larvae
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« Reply #32 on: May 04, 2011, 11:46:19 PM »

hypocritical in the sense that his motivations for converting to Islam are impure. It doesn't sound like he is in it for the god, but because he has a more motivated team with him. In my eyes he is taking the hamburger route. When in ten years he sees that all the terror they have caused hasn't brought any success he may move to the next team that looks promising. Will he have learnt anything from the Islam or even grasped it's essence? Probably not. For it is nothing but a tool. And I'm sure that counts for most of the other extremists. It's like a musician jumping in and out of bands, depending on how much success he thinks they will have. In that case, it's not about the music.

You are right, the journey is most likely to bring you the most self knowledge, but for that one should obviously stick to it. I just find it questionable when someone jumps from one extreme to the other. Gives me the impression that he is lost in general.
Mankind has brought forth so many religions, all proclaiming to be the only truth, preaching virtue and yet still, the world is in such a poor state. The only positive thing I found in Satanism was that contrary to most other religions it permits sin while still preaching a path of respectful coexistence.
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« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2011, 02:35:01 AM »

I would also like to add that Myatts writings in the ONA preached strict practice and treating all non believers and "mundanes" as the enemy and to not associate with them in any way, shape or form. How does converting to one of these "mundanes" make Myatt look. I think its fine for him to convert but why break his own rules?
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Litharge
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« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2011, 02:50:24 AM »

Put most simply, for some people or groups, the end justifies the means, and so “hypocrisy” does not factor in to their amoral, relativistic strategies and tactics.  Using islam as a tool for whatever screwy goal one might have may seem unsavory to some (including myself), but if the individual discarding the old tools as the supposedly better and more effective ones become available (such as ditching fringe Satanism for radical islam) sees no contradiction within their own sets of values and principles, ultimately that’s all that really matters to the individual.

And realistically, if one genuinely wishes to effect actual change on a national, or geopolitical scale, then islamic terrorism would certainly be more effective than “extreme satanism.”
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Litharge
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« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2011, 02:54:45 AM »

I would also like to add that Myatts writings in the ONA preached strict practice and treating all non believers and "mundanes" as the enemy and to not associate with them in any way, shape or form. How does converting to one of these "mundanes" make Myatt look. I think its fine for him to convert but why break his own rules?

“Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law”…
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« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2011, 03:45:23 AM »

I would also like to add that Myatts writings in the ONA preached strict practice and treating all non believers and "mundanes" as the enemy and to not associate with them in any way, shape or form. How does converting to one of these "mundanes" make Myatt look. I think its fine for him to convert but why break his own rules?

“Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law”…
A good thought! Maybe Myatt gained contact with his Holy Gaurdian Angel which told him converting to Islam would be The Great Work.
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Litharge
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« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2011, 05:39:35 AM »

A good thought! Maybe Myatt gained contact with his Holy Gaurdian Angel which told him converting to Islam would be The Great Work.

HA!  At this point I wouldn’t put such claims past Mr. Sinister Celebrity.  Thelema, or perhaps radical Mormonism used to bring about a new aeon, or the collapse of mundane civilization, or increased dole for unemployed authors, or whatever it is ONA types are pursuing these days…
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Human Larvae
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« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2011, 09:51:28 AM »



“Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law”…
[/quote]


a catchy phrase, yes. But even Satanism has a few more laws that restrict this freedom. Or does this stand above everything else?
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Litharge
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« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2011, 07:02:39 PM »

a catchy phrase, yes. But even Satanism has a few more laws that restrict this freedom. Or does this stand above everything else?

Since there are seemingly countless strains of Satanism at present, I’d say there are any number of varieties that would place perhaps-superficial interpretations of Crowley or Nietzsche (“Do what thou wilt…”, “Beyond good and evil…”) above the dictates of self-restraint demanded by other styles of Satanism.
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FreakAnimalFinland
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« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2011, 09:14:06 PM »

hypocritical in the sense that his motivations for converting to Islam are impure. It doesn't sound like he is in it for the god, but because he has a more motivated team with him. In my eyes he is taking the hamburger route. When in ten years he sees that all the terror they have caused hasn't brought any success he may move to the next team that looks promising. Will he have learnt anything from the Islam or even grasped it's essence? Probably not. For it is nothing but a tool. And I'm sure that counts for most of the other extremists. It's like a musician jumping in and out of bands, depending on how much success he thinks they will have. In that case, it's not about the music.

You are right, the journey is most likely to bring you the most self knowledge, but for that one should obviously stick to it. I just find it questionable when someone jumps from one extreme to the other. Gives me the impression that he is lost in general.
Mankind has brought forth so many religions, all proclaiming to be the only truth, preaching virtue and yet still, the world is in such a poor state. The only positive thing I found in Satanism was that contrary to most other religions it permits sin while still preaching a path of respectful coexistence.

This is true,... but only to the point, when we realize, that we can't really know what is his true faith? All we can do, is to see how he has followed his ideas against the stream for decades. With very little of "gain" other than what he feels is right?
A lot of faith, is simply based on what it can offer. Practical - just like the offerings of political islam.

I've seen few enlightements* happen. And they don't necessarily make sense. The people stay pretty much the same, they act pretty much the same, but necessity of getting "something", is there. And their sincerity in matters of faith I wouldn't question, as much as I could perhaps question their overall sanity, heh...
When one has the yearning and seeking something, and the divine answers, he can most certainly feel that all the nonsense spent before was just necessary route to find the correct way. Or that his aims and ideas, being always the same, yet clouded wrong "title".

This can be seen in many of the things. When people vaguely go for "satanism" or something like that, but in the end, their actual real calling all this time has been the liberal democracy. All the "anti-god", "burn churches" and such visions eventually reveal to be just the calling to criticize the "injustice" of conservative and irrational religion dominating their lives of oh so important free individuals?

I have often said it, but I do think there is severe lack of knowing, what exactly is wrong with things that are considered to be "bad" by the "transgressive" underground people. Where simple things like, why exactly would christianity be bad, remains often unasked? Why thelema would be good? Why islam would be shitty, and why maybe buddhist may rule? Bombarding of certain ideas makes it unnecessary to even ask oneself why to think this way. Conditioned responses of certain type of peer pressure. And at the most amusing case, it leads to situation, where "anti-christians" are the ones who share the ideals about 99% same as "christians". Simply feel more comfortable to categorize their ideals under other name, while having pretty much the same agendas.

This would be good question ask in case: Why should I study occult & esoteric? What it would give to me? If I know sentence like "do what thou wilt", what does it mean to me, if I can't even understand the concept of The True Will, or if I do understand, but don't believe in it? etc...

(edit * meaning, previously "regular bloke" turning into die-hard christians)
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Litharge
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« Reply #41 on: May 06, 2011, 02:34:33 AM »

I've seen few enlightements* happen. And they don't necessarily make sense. The people stay pretty much the same, they act pretty much the same, but necessity of getting "something", is there. And their sincerity in matters of faith I wouldn't question, as much as I could perhaps question their overall sanity, heh...

(edit * meaning, previously "regular bloke" turning into die-hard christians)

You’re fortunate not to have dealt with such a phenomenon very often: in the United States “born again” christians are far from uncommon -- take the previous president as perhaps the highest profile instance in recent years.  And for many of these newly “saved”, “washed in the blood of the lamb” x-ians, their conversions or re-affirmations of faith are all-too-evident, as they often yap about it whenever possible (frequently under the thinnest of pretext, and when their religion is entirely irrelevant to the conversations they try to dominate), and often make their fresh righteousness conspicuous (“I’m going to church this Wednesday -- want to come?” --or-- “Well, I just don’t think that’s right [whatever the topic is] because I’m a christian, and in the bible it says….”
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Human Larvae
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« Reply #42 on: May 07, 2011, 01:15:10 AM »

hypocritical in the sense that his motivations for converting to Islam are impure. It doesn't sound like he is in it for the god, but because he has a more motivated team with him. In my eyes he is taking the hamburger route. When in ten years he sees that all the terror they have caused hasn't brought any success he may move to the next team that looks promising. Will he have learnt anything from the Islam or even grasped it's essence? Probably not. For it is nothing but a tool. And I'm sure that counts for most of the other extremists. It's like a musician jumping in and out of bands, depending on how much success he thinks they will have. In that case, it's not about the music.

You are right, the journey is most likely to bring you the most self knowledge, but for that one should obviously stick to it. I just find it questionable when someone jumps from one extreme to the other. Gives me the impression that he is lost in general.
Mankind has brought forth so many religions, all proclaiming to be the only truth, preaching virtue and yet still, the world is in such a poor state. The only positive thing I found in Satanism was that contrary to most other religions it permits sin while still preaching a path of respectful coexistence.


This is true,... but only to the point, when we realize, that we can't really know what is his true faith? All we can do, is to see how he has followed his ideas against the stream for decades. With very little of "gain" other than what he feels is right?
A lot of faith, is simply based on what it can offer. Practical - just like the offerings of political islam.

I've seen few enlightements* happen. And they don't necessarily make sense. The people stay pretty much the same, they act pretty much the same, but necessity of getting "something", is there. And their sincerity in matters of faith I wouldn't question, as much as I could perhaps question their overall sanity, heh...
When one has the yearning and seeking something, and the divine answers, he can most certainly feel that all the nonsense spent before was just necessary route to find the correct way. Or that his aims and ideas, being always the same, yet clouded wrong "title".

This can be seen in many of the things. When people vaguely go for "satanism" or something like that, but in the end, their actual real calling all this time has been the liberal democracy. All the "anti-god", "burn churches" and such visions eventually reveal to be just the calling to criticize the "injustice" of conservative and irrational religion dominating their lives of oh so important free individuals?

I have often said it, but I do think there is severe lack of knowing, what exactly is wrong with things that are considered to be "bad" by the "transgressive" underground people. Where simple things like, why exactly would christianity be bad, remains often unasked? Why thelema would be good? Why islam would be shitty, and why maybe buddhist may rule? Bombarding of certain ideas makes it unnecessary to even ask oneself why to think this way. Conditioned responses of certain type of peer pressure. And at the most amusing case, it leads to situation, where "anti-christians" are the ones who share the ideals about 99% same as "christians". Simply feel more comfortable to categorize their ideals under other name, while having pretty much the same agendas.

This would be good question ask in case: Why should I study occult & esoteric? What it would give to me? If I know sentence like "do what thou wilt", what does it mean to me, if I can't even understand the concept of The True Will, or if I do understand, but don't believe in it? etc...

(edit * meaning, previously "regular bloke" turning into die-hard christians)


granted, you can't really judge what goes on inside of someone, you can just try judge by his actions. And yes, why exactly is Christianity bad? Because priests are fucking kids? Because of the inquisitions? Does it make the religion bad because the people fuck it up? I wouldn't think so. You could just well reject satanism because some fools performed ritualistic murders.
I would like to question if the road of self indulgence is all that rewarding? Or do I understand it wrong? Aren't things more pleasurable if they are forbidden, and don't things become mundane if you can have them 24/7? I personally have found self restriction to be quite enjoyable at times.

My personal experience with a good friend who has been going down the esotheric route and been "enlightened" was a little straining. Suddenly everything revolved around this subject. He did change his lifestyle but I personally couldn't see the point behind all of the things he started practising and it made little sense to me. But in all it did make him a happier person, so good for him.
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« Reply #43 on: May 10, 2011, 08:49:30 AM »

And yes, why exactly is Christianity bad? Because priests are fucking kids? Because of the inquisitions? Does it make the religion bad because the people fuck it up? I wouldn't think so. You could just well reject satanism because some fools performed ritualistic murders.
I would like to question if the road of self indulgence is all that rewarding? Or do I understand it wrong? Aren't things more pleasurable if they are forbidden, and don't things become mundane if you can have them 24/7? I personally have found self restriction to be quite enjoyable at times.

As I pointed out, it appears to be tough question why exactly christianity would be bad. I wouldn't care much of questions who is fucking who, as % appears to be the same whatever faith one has.
But most certainly, judging religion would have to happen based on its consequences (humans acting under it's guidance or possibilities). It seems fact that only losing side or adversary is judged by consequences, while the dominant force or winner is judged by theoretical "good". One can simply observe this by checking out how much collective guilt is piled over person if he'd confess to be supporter of some idea. This also includes the idea where everything is judged by the foolishly by standards of few western consumerist countries and perhaps the out-dated american dream.

Self indulgence - to me - appears to be the wrong term. I'd rather talk of self awareness. Of course you can't talk of "occult & esoteric" and try to give impression as you'd be talking about one very specific thing.
Still, I'd rather train & study to be able to make conclusion, decision, be able to withdraw from chains of humanity in issues where you need to approach issues much more colder methods, be able to set yourself free from automatic conditioned responses, etc. People may seek different things. I have not much use for the quest of truth about life after death.
Many of the methods have been presented in spiritual or psychological&physical practices all over the world. Should none of it be called "occult", when often it's hardly any hidden knowledge?
This is what I often have discussed with various people into occultism. Why is the bullshit "props" so vital? Why the utmost fetishism for candles, capes, daggers, etc. When most of all, reality has been that it's purchase from some "esoteric ebay shop" for purpose of decoration. Of course it may fill some aesthetic pleasure, yet seem as unnecessary as thinking buying flag of Che from mall, would be huge step in your political life. First step would be simply "why", and then you could proceed to correct direction.
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RyanWreck
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« Reply #44 on: May 10, 2011, 09:15:15 AM »



“Do what thou Wilt shall be the whole of the Law”…

Quote
a catchy phrase, yes. But even Satanism has a few more laws that restrict this freedom. Or does this stand above everything else?

Please do not mix Thelema with Satanism. It means find to your True Will and do nothing else, in the most simple terms. Every so called "Occult" BM or Noise groups seems to forget the other part - "Love is the Law, Love under Will." I have 11 years now of experience at being a Thelemite, anyone wants to discuss it I am open to doing so. The same goes for Ceremonial Magick in both the Western and Eastern sense.
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