Pornography Appreciation / Sexual curiousities / etc topic

Started by FreakAnimalFinland, December 13, 2009, 09:55:35 PM

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Unheard



tiny_tove

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FreakAnimalFinland

Quote from: Unheard on June 16, 2010, 01:51:27 PM
Jerry Springer ?

yes.
I think this type of entertainment has very very few points that makes it interesting. I haven't seen single show for... well, I would think 6-7 years. I think there was another document about the case, where husband killed his wife after appearing on Jerry Springer show. And it caused them to have certain amount of counceling / therapy type of thing, and not just find them, humiliate them, and then throw away.

This catch a predator show I watched couple times, unless there are few of them? At least something similar. You start to feel sorry about those guys. Being lured to be caught for ratings. Entrapment in Finland, is not something what is approved. Most of cases, there are no laws against planning a crime either. Most people would know the saying "opportunity makes a thief", and that combined to idea of all men being potential rapists(/predators)... I think there was one funny episode, where they caught a guy, who had been caught once before. He said he knew this is most likely sting, but came anyways.

I do wonder, has there yet been any news reports of private live underage webcam shows etc? It would seem hard to keep track on all the live video footage of the world. Very popular upload sites, like pornhost.com, is filled with teeny webcam footage, which seems hard to prove wether girl on screen is 14, 18 or 22...
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Unheard

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 16, 2010, 08:59:52 PM
Quote from: Unheard on June 16, 2010, 01:51:27 PM
Jerry Springer ?

yes.
I think this type of entertainment has very very few points that makes it interesting. I haven't seen single show for... well, I would think 6-7 years. I think there was another document about the case, where husband killed his wife after appearing on Jerry Springer show. And it caused them to have certain amount of counceling / therapy type of thing, and not just find them, humiliate them, and then throw away.

This catch a predator show I watched couple times, unless there are few of them? At least something similar. You start to feel sorry about those guys. Being lured to be caught for ratings. Entrapment in Finland, is not something what is approved. Most of cases, there are no laws against planning a crime either. Most people would know the saying "opportunity makes a thief", and that combined to idea of all men being potential rapists(/predators)... I think there was one funny episode, where they caught a guy, who had been caught once before. He said he knew this is most likely sting, but came anyways.

I do wonder, has there yet been any news reports of private live underage webcam shows etc? It would seem hard to keep track on all the live video footage of the world. Very popular upload sites, like pornhost.com, is filled with teeny webcam footage, which seems hard to prove wether girl on screen is 14, 18 or 22...

Peter Sotos and William Bennett attended a Jerry Springer's show (ironically focusing on men who love underage girls...), and i think this tells something; i guess the Geraldo show is far more entertaining, dealing mostly and mainly with sordid crimes (while Springer seems to like white trash, Klansmen desperately fighting against black nationalists, drunk mothers and other idiotic human waste, a sort of toxic Oprah for suburban demented).
Geraldo is the one who asks an abused victim what she was feeling while she was being assaulted and raped and such stuff (plus as an extra bonus, an obsession with KP). The glamourization of crime (especially sexual crimes) is the real thing worlwide and i'm pretty  sure every single country got its own Springer or Geraldo, the only difference being the crimes committed.

To catch a predator has its own counterpart as well; Perverted Justice, a network of people who claim to have lost dignity and privacy due to To Catch a Predator.

Obviously there are shows which really deliver the goods; aside this Oprah's single shot

http://blogs.post-trib.com/street/2009/11/facing_execution_killer_to_fac.html

On italian FoxCrime there's a show (i know for sure its an american format, but i dont remember the title) in which victims parents meet the killers; we had the leader of the satanic cult Beasts of Satan (and killer) Andrea Volpe who had the chance to meet one of his victims'  parents, it was obviously a lot of fun to watch because it was...ridiculous

Talking about private webcam shows and porn,  i've just found out that some "private" videos uploaded on bigger sites like Bulk Porn or Hamster are now closed (at least here in Italy, by postal police) due to violation of antichild pornography laws

FreakAnimalFinland

When reading the announcement of LAFMS - lowest music thing happening in London, it just reminds me of LOWEST ARTS... I mean, the stuff, that its so low, it appears to be art. Since it hardly could be taken as... well, porn made for profit.

I read today this vintage book called A HOLE IN THE WALL. Infact, it is 2 stories, hand binded to hard cover. Hole in the wall is nothing special, but "A Confessions of an indian lady" is rough. It's childhood experiences with neighborhood boys of 9yrs (while she at 11), incest with uncle, and so on. But this is so old book, it is lettered by hand. And constant fuck-ups in lettering. Constant brutal typos. Sometimes lettering even upside-down in few words once in a while. It's crudely hand crafter. Looks almost like library job, where they'd just make one paperback into hardcove. The real hardcover edition not even existing.
This is just the kind of tribute worthy material. Surviving copies in the world might be very very few. It has zero artistic value. It is hard to get aroused, with such a broken english and constant fuck-ups. It's surreal, and such a thrill!
I got piles of this type of stuff.
Tried to read this Seksikäs Nuoruus 1 (sexy youth 1) paperback. Finnish language, published by swedish "company" in 1972. It's plain typewrite text. With language which makes you think it's most likely translated by guy who doesn't know proper Finnish. Unfortunately sexual content is minimal. It tries to tell story, and miserably fails. So did my enthusiasm.  It's about teenage schoolgirls and all that, but... yaawwn! Only worthy to own due it's crude presentation, reminding of times when porn wasn't all full color, glossy and hi-tech.
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FreakAnimalFinland

For this same category, one could fill about dozen old s/m, spanking, rubber, and such magazines I read today. Well. Browsed. Many in german or dutch. Some danish. Lots of shitty photos. Lots of bad photos. Lots of useless advertizements. Lots of short bits of text, which I may only guess, probably were not nobel candidates at the time. But all of them: great! Any time, anyday, preferred over majority of junk produced at the moment.
When magazine has name such as STILL SEX MAD (special books 19). Badly written story with fierce lay-out and some full page b/w images scattered within 66 pages. Intense.
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tiny_tove

one of my fave icons ever




Sharon Dogar fights back over 'sexed up' Anne Frank novel

Children's novelist defends Annexed, which re-imagines the relationship between Anne Frank and Peter van Pels

ANNE FRANK Timeless teenager ... The adolescent relationship between Anne Frank and Peter van Pels is explored in Sharon Dogar's novel. Photograph: AP

The contested legacy of Anne Frank, the teenage girl whose diaries have captured the imagination of generations and brought to life the horrors of the Holocaust, has sparked a new row, after a British writer was accused of "exploitation" in her novelisation of Frank's wartime experiences.

The co-founder and executive director of the Anne Frank Trust, Gillian Walnes, reacted angrily to her first sight of Sharon Dogar's novel Annexed, due to be published in September, saying that her re-imagining of the relationship between Anne and a boy who hid from the Nazis in the same Amsterdam building, Peter van Pels, was "not fair on someone who was a living person".

"I really don't understand why we have to fictionalise the Anne Frank story, when young people engage with it anyway," she said. "To me it seems like exploitation. If this woman writer is such a good novelist, why doesn't she create characters from scratch?"

Dogar, who said that she "might be in shock" after the Sunday Times accused her of "sexing up" Anne Frank, said that she was "worried herself" about being exploitative as she wrote.

"The problem is that a writer doesn't always choose what they write," she said. "The idea of this book plagued me for 15 years. I tried quite hard not to write it, mostly because I had similar concerns; I couldn't do it justice, I wasn't sure it was legitimate, I didn't believe I had the talent to portray the horror of the Holocaust. But sometimes stories just come and you can't stop them."

"How it might have felt to be written about by her is central to the novel," she continued, "and so perhaps it's no surprise that the question of how she might have felt to be written about has arisen. I often wonder what she might think."

Dogar says she made every effort to portray the events and characters accurately, citing a correspondence with Frank's only surviving relative, Buddy Elias, in which she says she assuaged his initial doubts over the book, and he finished by wishing her well with it.

"I'm certainly sad that many people's first view of my book doesn't reflect the truth of it," she said.

Her editor at Andersen Press, Charlie Sheppard, said that they had been in touch with Elias for many months, and had sent him an early version of the book to look at. "We spoke to Buddy, we spoke to [Anne Frank's] biographer, we spoke endlessly about each word," she said, "because the last thing anyone wanted was to cause any offence."

The novel, which opens with Peter on the point of death, is told as a series of diary entries interspersed with the thoughts of the dying boy, charting the story of the time he spent hiding with the Franks in the Annexe at 263 Prinsengracht, his discovery and his time in the Mauthausen concentration camp. But it is the small part of the book that concerns Peter's teenage sexuality that has angered Walnes, and led her to accuse Dogar of "putting 21st-century mores on to young people" from a different era.

"I don't understand why this story has to be sexualised," she said, "and why Peter's character has to be changed."

Dogar rejects the accusation of anachronism, countering that there is nowhere in the book where they come close to breaking the taboo around sex, and that "in the book the reality of just one truly intimate touch was enough to stop them".

"Whilst it's true to say that children of the war years lived according to different cultural mores and social strictures," she said, "it's also true that there are some fundamental and universal human feelings that are biological rather than social. The state of adolescence existed before 'teenagers' were invented. Adolescent hormones have always been in conflict with social rulings. This is why some of Anne's thoughts remain as powerful and meaningful today as they were 60 years ago."

Although Peter does worry in the novel that he "will never make love to a girl", and there is a scene in which Anne and Peter kiss, Sheppard rejects the accusation that the book is mainly concerned with sex.

"The sexual awakening of Anne plays more of a major part in her diary than this book," she said, citing moments in the diary where Anne discusses her periods. The diaries were first published in the face of some opposition from relatives and acquaintances in 1947, in a version edited by Anne's father Otto which did not include these passages.

For Dogar the inspiration for Annexed "was not really Anne herself, but Peter van Pels". She acknowledged the responsibility that novelists have to real characters but suggested that "there is no one truth alone".

"Otto Frank remarked, upon reading Anne's diary, that he did not recognise his daughter as she described herself," she continued, "and that 'from this' he could only conclude that 'as parents we do not really know our children'. Historical novelists are, in a sense, in loco parentis to their characters, and like parents, they have a duty to try and understand their subjects."

The children's writer John Boyne, whose controversial novel The Boy in the Striped Pyjamas tells the story of two boys divided by a concentration camp fence and was made into a film in 2008, defended the role of children's fiction in dealing with subjects as charged as the Holocaust, as long as the writer employs "an accessible and intelligent style to engage the young reader and to make him or her question the world in which they live".

"There are those who would say that a strict adherence to the facts is crucial," he said, "but fiction by its nature distorts reality while nevertheless reflecting it. Place a fictional character into a historical setting and that world is already corrupted; accept that and move on to examine what the novelist is trying to say."

According to Boyne, novels can play a "huge role" in educating young people. "Children will switch off if they are lectured," he continued, "but tell them a good story with characters they can relate to and you're halfway there."

Dogar called on people to focus on the book itself rather than articles written about it in the press. "I've done my best with Annexed," she added, "and it's now for readers to decide whether or not I've succeeded."

With the media storm surrounding her generating rather more heat than light, Dogar may come to regret the power of the written word. As Peter says to Anne in a discussion about her diary towards the end of the book, "It's on a page where it looks like the truth – even if it isn't."
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tiny_tove

more anti porn

the guardian


The truth about the porn industry

Gail Dines, the author of an explosive new book about the sex industry, on why pornography has never been a greater threat to our relationships


    *
      Comments (99)

    * Julie Bindel


Anti-pornography campaigner Gail Dines Anti-pornography campaigner Gail Dines Photograph: Sarah Lee for the Guardian

The last time I saw Gail Dines speak, at a conference in Boston, she moved the audience to tears with her description of the problems caused by pornography, and provoked laughter with her sharp observations about pornographers themselves. Activists in the audience were newly inspired, and men at the event – many of whom had never viewed pornography as a problem before – queued up afterwards to pledge their support. The scene highlighted Dines's explosive charisma and the fact that, since the death of Andrea Dworkin, she has risen to that most difficult and interesting of public roles: the world's leading anti-pornography campaigner.

Dines is also a highly regarded academic and her new book, Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality, has just come out in the US, and is available online here. She wrote it primarily to educate people about what pornography today is really like, she says, and to banish any notion of it as benign titillation. "We are now bringing up a generation of boys on cruel, violent porn," she says, "and given what we know about how images affect people, this is going to have a profound influence on their sexuality, behaviour and attitudes towards women."

The book documents the recent history of porn, including the technological shifts that have made it accessible on mobile phones, videogames and laptops. According to Dines's research the prevalence of porn means that men are becoming desensitised to it, and are therefore seeking out ever harsher, more violent and degrading images. Even the porn industry is shocked by how much violence the fans want, she says; at the industry conferences that Dines attends, porn makers have increasingly been discussing the trend for more extreme practices. And the audience is getting younger. Market research conducted by internet providers found that the average age a boy first sees porn today is 11; a study from the University of Alberta found that one third of 13-year-old boys admitted viewing porn; and a survey published by Psychologies magazine in the UK last month found that a third of 14- to 16-year-olds had first seen sexual images online when they were 10 or younger – 81% of those polled looked at porn online at home, while 63% could easily access it on their mobile phones.

"I have found that the earlier men use porn," says Dines, "the more likely they are to have trouble developing close, intimate relationships with real women. Some of these men prefer porn to sex with an actual human being. They are bewildered, even angry, when real women don't want or enjoy porn sex."

Porn culture doesn't only affect men. It also changes "the way women and girls think about their bodies, their sexuality and their relationships," says Dines. "Every group that has fought for liberation understands that media images are part and parcel of the systematic dehumanisation of an oppressed group . . . The more porn images filter into mainstream culture, the more girls and women are stripped of full human status and reduced to sex objects. This has a terrible effect on girls' sexual identity because it robs them of their own sexual desire."

Images have now become so extreme that acts that were almost non-existent a decade ago have become commonplace. From studying thousands of porn films and images Dines found that the most popular acts depicted in internet porn include vaginal, oral and anal penetration by three or more men at the same time; double anal; double vaginal; a female gagging from having a penis thrust into her throat; and ejaculation in a woman's face, eyes and mouth.

"To think that so many men hate women to the degree that they can get aroused by such vile images is quite profound," says Dines. "Pornography is the perfect propaganda piece for patriarchy. In nothing else is their hatred of us quite as clear."

Born in Manchester, Dines moved to Israel in 1980, aged 22, and soon became involved in the women's movement. An event organised by the feminist consciousness-raising group Women against Pornography in Haifa – in which pornography was shown – changed her life forever. "I was astounded that men could either make such a thing or want to look at it," she says. From then on, she knew she had to campaign about the issue.

There were two images from Hustler magazine that she found especially shocking: a cartoon of a construction worker drilling a jackhammer into a woman's vagina, and one depicting a woman being fed through a meat grinder. "I was newly married and told my husband that night how appalled I was, which he fully understood," she says. "If he had said I was a prude I don't think I could have stayed with him."

The couple moved to the US in 1986, and Dines has taught at Wheelock College, Boston ever since, where she is professor of sociology and women's studies and chair of the American studies department. She is something of a lone voice in academia. Aside from what she says are "a handful" of colleagues across the US, most contemporary scholars are positive about pornography, and Dines thinks this is due to both a fear of being considered in alliance with the religious right and the view that pornography represents and champions sexual liberation.

"Many on the liberal left adopt a view that says pornographers are not businessmen but are simply there to unleash our sexuality from state-imposed constraints," she says. This view was reflected in the film The People vs Larry Flynt, where the billionaire pornographer of the film's title – the head of the Hustler empire – was portrayed as a man simply fighting for freedom of speech. Dines disputes these ideas. "Trust me," she says, "I have interviewed hundreds of pornographers and the only thing that gets them excited is profit."

As a result of her research, Dines believes that pornography is driving men to commit particular acts of violence towards women. "I am not saying that a man reads porn and goes out to rape," she says, "but what I do know is that porn gives permission to its consumers to treat women as they are treated in porn." In a recent study, 80% of men said that the one sex act they would most like to perform is to ejaculate on a woman's face; in 2007, a comment stream on the website Jezebel.com included a number of women who said that, on a first date, they had, to their surprise, experienced their sexual partner ejaculating on their faces without asking.

Sexual assault centres in US colleges have said that more women are reporting anal rape, which Dines attributes directly to the normalisation of such practices in pornography. "The more porn sexualises violence against women, the more it normalises and legitimises sexually abusive behaviour. Men learn about sex from porn, and in porn nothing is too painful or degrading for women." Dines also says that what she calls "childified porn" has significantly increased in popularity in recent years, with almost 14m internet searches for "teen sex" in 2006, an increase of more than 60% since 2004. There are legal sites that feature hardcore images of extremely young-looking women being penetrated by older men, with disclaimers stating all the models are 18 and over. Dines is clear that regular exposure to such material has an effect of breaking down the taboo about having sex with children.

She recently interviewed a number of men in prison who had committed rape against children. All were habitual users of child pornography. "What they said to me was they got bored with 'regular' porn and wanted something fresh. They were horrified at the idea of sex with a prepubescent child initially but within six months they had all raped a child."

What can we expect next from the industry? "Nobody knows, including pornographers," she says, "but they are all looking for something more extreme, more shocking." She recently interviewed a well-known pornographer, while his latest film played in the background. It contained a scene of a woman being anally penetrated while kneeling in a coffin.

In Dines's view, the best way to address the rise of internet pornography is to raise public awareness about its actual content, and name it as a public health issue by bringing together educators, health professionals, community activists, parents and anti-violence experts to create materials that educate the public. "Just as we had anti-smoking campaigns, we need an anti-porn campaign that alerts people to the individual and cultural harms it creates."

"Myths about those of us who hate pornography also need to be dispelled in order to gain more support from progressives," she says. "The assumption that if you are a woman who hates pornography you are against sex shows how successful the industry is at collapsing porn into sex." Would the critics of the employment practices and products at McDonald's be accused of being anti-eating, she asks pointedly.

The backlash against Dines and her work is well-documented. Various pro-porn activists post accusations about her on websites, suggesting she is motivated by money, hates sex, and victimises women to support her supposed anti-male ideology. Salon.com reported recently that the sex writer, Violet Blue, had launched a pro-porn campaign to counteract an anti-porn conference that Dines and colleagues held last month. Dines is regularly criticised by pornographers in the trade magazines and on porn websites and she tells me that her college receives letters after any public event at which she is speaking, attacking her views.

Does she ever feel depressed by all this? "It gets me down sometimes, of course. But I try to surround myself with good things – my students, colleagues, and my family." She says the blueprint for her aims is the eradication of slavery in the US, which was achieved despite the fact that every single institution was geared to uphold and perpetuate it. "What is at stake is the nature of the world that we live in," says Dines. "We have to wrestle it back."
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ConcreteMascara

"in 2007, a comment stream on the website Jezebel.com included a number of women who said that, on a first date, they had, to their surprise, experienced their sexual partner ejaculating on their faces without asking."

If the girls are going to blow guys on their first date what else do they expect?
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tiny_tove



Grindr: a new sexual revolution?

Grindr is a free phone app which lets gay men instantly pinpoint each other using GPS technology. It has already transformed the sex lives of 700,000 men around the world. But could it work in the straight market? And would it mean the end of monogamy?

          o Polly Vernon
          o The Observer, Sunday 4 July 2010
          o Article history

Ever heard of Grindr? If you have, I'm going to guess that you are male and gay; or male, technically straight and somewhat curious; or the straight friend of a gay man. If not, allow me to enlighten you.

Grindr (pronounced "grinder") is a free downloadable iPhone app which, it promises, will help you "Find gay, bi, curious guys for free near you!" Grindr harnesses GPS, allowing you to establish who else in your direct vicinity is also using Grindr. It shows you – on a gridded display – who these men are and what they look like; it'll tell you how far away from you (in feet, and even more thrillingly, fractions of feet) they are standing; and it will allow you to "chat" them, if they take your fancy. Although buried deep in the Grindr ethos is the idea that you shouldn't do in cyberspace what you could be easily be doing in person. Don't "chat" when you could actually, you know, chat.

Grinding is an intoxicating experience. I was first introduced to it on the roof terrace of a bar in east London by my friends J and W. J launched the app on his iPhone and I got palpitations as the grid of portraits (ordered in terms of geographical proximity – your nearest Grindr user is posted at the top left) instantly unfurled itself across the screen. All these men, effectively coming on to – well, not me, but still... It is literally a sexy app and the overflow of that sexual potency, the decadence, sweeps you along on a wave of lust, regardless of who you are and what your gender or sexual orientation might be. I was reminded of the first time I entered words into the search criteria on Google, of the first time I downloaded music from iTunes – I knew I was engaging with a bit of technology that would alter things on a profound level.

I scrolled on and on through the grid of gay offerings, furtively trying to match the pixelated images with the real-life men ranged around me in the bar.

"But do you want to know the funny thing?" J said. "The best nights you can have on Grindr are the nights when you stay in." And he laughed, wickedly.

Grindr is reconfiguring the landscape of human relationships. Partly because it's sex in an app, the sexual equivalent of ordering take-away, or online fashion (my friend Kevin calls it "net-a-port-gay.com", and he's so pleased with himself for this he says I can use his real name. Everyone else asked to remain anonymous). Grindr was launched on 25 March 2009; now more than 700,000 (and counting) men in 162 countries around the world are using it to phenomenal effect, if J, W, Kevin and the other gay men I've asked are any kind of a guide. "I've never, ever had so much sex in my life!" R told me gleefully. "I've probably had as much in the past eight months of Grinding as I have over the 20 years since I came out. Maybe more." It's only going to get bigger, to facilitate more sex. Two thousand people download it every day, and a BlackBerry-friendly version of the app launched less than a month ago – a development which could triple Grindr's reach.

But Grindr is more significant even than that suggests. It marks a major evolution in how all of us – gay, straight, alive – will meet and interact with each other. Depending on who you talk to, this is either brilliant (liberating, socially enabling – the end, even, of loneliness and boredom); or a potential disaster (signalling the end of monogamy, facilitating sex addiction). Either way, it matters.

Arguably we are living in a post-gay era. The divide between gay and straight worlds diminishes daily. Gay culture and straight culture become increasingly intertwined. For example, Grindr's biggest boost occurred in June 2009, after gay icon Stephen Fry told the boorishly straight Jeremy Clarkson all about it during an interview on super-hetero TV show Top Gear.

So Grindr would matter even if it was not in the process of developing a straight version of its sexy self. But it is. It is likely that the Grindr experience will be open to a straight market by the end of 2010.

"Oh, at the very latest," says Joel Simkhai, the founder of Grindr. He's a wiry, neatly handsome 33-year-old man with an American accent, a hectic manner and a sharp business edge. I meet him for coffee in a chic hotel in London. This is where he's basing himself while he checks out Grindr's flourishing UK market; he usually lives in Los Angeles. "The UK is the second biggest country for Grindr after the US," he tells me. "London is the third biggest city after New York and LA. You love us."

Simkhai was born in Tel Aviv and he and his parents moved to New York ("State, not the city") when he was three. He came out in his mid-teens "just as AOL was taking off. I was born – gay-born – with online. And that was a huge help to me in terms of meeting people – people who unfortunately were a ways away in Wyoming or wherever – but still, I was meeting people who were gay and who weren't freaks." But Simkhai says he still felt isolated as a young gay teenager. He found himself asking: "The question. I think every gay man starts asking it, from the moment he realises he's gay. You are somewhere and it's: 'Who else here, right now, is gay? Who?' You are looking around, you are constantly wondering. Because coming out is a lonely process."

Still?

"Yes! Very much so! And every gay man who asks himself that question also thinks: 'Wouldn't it be good if there was some way for me to tell? Some way for me to know?' Every gay man has had the idea for Grindr."

Nearly two decades later, after Simkhai had finished a degree in international relations and economics and worked for some years in finance, Apple launched its second-generation iPhone. "It was almost as if someone was handing Grindr to me on a silver platter. The first iPhone didn't have GPS, and it only had about eight apps. They were all Apple apps, too – you couldn't develop your own. It really wasn't that great a device. But in the same announcement of the second-generation phone, they said: 'This phone will have GPS and now you can create apps!' I was like: 'Wait a minute! I know an app I want to do!'"

Did he have a complete notion of what he wanted from Grindr? How it would work, what it would look like, what sort of commotion it would create?

"Ha! No. My notion was use GPS, see who else is near. Simple as that."

In August 2008, Simkhai contacted Morten Bek Ditlevsen, an app developer based in Denmark. "He had a passion for GPS, just as I did. He's straight, but he liked the idea; he had a full-time job, but he said: 'Yeah, I'll do this as a hobby.' Didn't ask for much money."

Simkhai brought another friend, "Scott Lewallen, an expert in branding, marketing and design", into the fold. Both still work on Grindr. It took Simkhai, Bek Ditlevsen and Lewallen six months and $5,000 to build Grindr.

About the name: where did it come from?

"Nowhere specific. We liked the word. We liked the notion of a coffee grinder, mixing things together... And there's the term 'guy finder' in there, too. We wanted something that was masculine but was not about pride flags. Was not about..."

A politicised idea of gayness?

"Yes! And was fun! And was in a way – not about being gay. I'm gay; I am a proud gay man. It's not that we have any issues, right? But Grindr's not about gay rights, or gay anything. It's about finding guys. Being among your peers. Socialising. Being part of your community. It's not about: 'We're here, we're queer.'"

So Grindr launched in spring 2009. For the first few months uptake was steady but modest. Then Stephen Fry showed it to Jeremy Clarkson on Top Gear "and 40,000 men had downloaded it within a week. Amazing."

Simkhai talks with great passion about his creation. He builds a beautiful case for Grindr. He trumpets its international, unifying aspect, making it sound like the United Nations of gayness. "Here we are, 8,000 miles from home and we have 50,000 guys here in London. How? What? I haven't been here for 10 years – the first thing I did when I landed at Heathrow was launch Grindr! Sydney. Melbourne. Singapore. Tokyo! Tokyo is our fourth largest city, one of our top cities! I've never been to Japan! I don't speak Japanese!"

He points out that Grindr is a response to online dating, which causes as many problems as it solves. "With missed connections and back and forth, and: 'Oh actually, this week I'm in New York, and you're in LA...' Online dating is frustrating! It is a lot of work!" Grindr, on the other hand, is immediate. There is no messing about, no toing and froing, no building up your hopes via weeks of emails only to discover on your first physical date that you just don't fancy whoever in the flesh. You see someone's picture on Grindr, you meet immediately, you establish whether or not you're attracted to each other: "Grindr reintroduces the aspect of chemistry. And – it's real. It is not a Second Life. It is not a virtual world. It's a tool. It enables real life, it doesn't replace it."

And it leads, I say, to very real sex. None of this virtual nonsense.

Simkhai pauses.

"Er... From my perspective... it's not sex. It's a precursor to sex. It's just before. That's how I see Grindr. We want to be sexy. We think sex is part of life, the basis of life. But Grindr is sexiness rather than sex."

Simkhai is concerned, perhaps, about the conservative elements of the US media. Editorials on the danger of the "new gay hook-up app" pop up periodically. Simkhai is keen to make the point that Grindr is not uniquely concerned with procuring sex. "I meet guys all the time who say to me: 'I know it's for hooking up, but... ' But they met some really good friends. But they met their boyfriend. But. But." Simkhai says his main hope for Grindr is it will help young gay men through the process of coming out.

I am moved by Simkhai's passion, by the tales of the non-sexual impact of Grindr. I appreciate that it is still not easy to come out, and how important that sense of geographical proximity, of being part of a visible and accepting community, would be. The David Laws story breaks a fortnight after I interview Simkhai; a high-profile, sad piece of evidence that gay men still encounter problems in making their sexuality public.

Yet the men I speak to tell me Grindr is all about sex. "Internet's for dating; Grindr's for sex," D tells me. "Well, sometimes the internet's for sex, too, but Grindr: definitely sex." I ask around and am inundated with Grindr stories, all of which end in a sexual encounter. "Sometimes you don't really fancy them , but..." There's a sense of obligation to have sex anyway? "Yeah. But that's OK."

I begin to develop an idea of the culture that surrounds it. Many gay men see Grindr as a way to round off an evening. "I'd had dinner at a friend's house in west London and I was walking back to the tube; thought I'd launch Grindr, see what was going on. This guy pops up and chats me: 'You're near!' I chat back: 'I know... ' He says: 'I'm here with my boyfriend. Come and see us.' So... I did."

Others use it as you might a glass of wine at the end of a stressful day. Kev lives near a major station: "And so I get a lot of literal traffic. Men get off the train on Sunday night after a weekend somewhere stifling, probably with their parents; they launch Grindr – guess who pops up first?"

It's mixing formerly segregated elements of gay society. My 30- and 40-something gay male friends tell me they're having much more to do with younger gay men: "Which is weird, and yeah, sometimes not totally comfortable, if you think about it," says one. "You have to work out what's too young for you and stick to that limit. But – you're always honest about who you are. You've got to be. You can't say you're younger or hotter than you are; you can't post someone else's photo. If you lie you're just going to get found out, and that pisses people off, obviously. Lying isn't done on Grindr."

Cheating, on the other hand, definitely is.

"You always see on Grindr: 'Oh, I've got a boyfriend – just interested in chatting!'" says Matthew Todd, editor of gay lifestyle magazine Attitude. "Oh really? Why? Why do you need to chat to people? Why do you need to be on Grindr? Call your mum up!"

A gay man who is in a long-term relationship tells me he's aware of Grindr, but is choosing not to try it. "It would change everything. I'm very tempted, of course I am! But ultimately I don't want to go there, and I don't want my boyfriend F to go there either."

"The vast majority of guys on Grindr are in a relationship," says P. "And I reckon a quarter of the guys who use it are straight. Not curious or bi or whatever. Straight."

"The straight ones are all talk!" says D. "They love the idea that sex with a stranger could be that easy, could be downloaded on their phone... But when it comes to it, they won't do anything."

Not every gay man is enamoured of Grindr. Attitude's Matthew Todd has reservations. "A friend with an iPhone showed me it about a year ago and said: 'Can you believe it?' I rolled my eyes and thought: 'There is no way of stopping this.' Find any new technology – we will always bring it back to sex." Todd's used it ("I dip in and out") and he knows from feedback that Attitude's readers are using it a great deal. "I think it's good for people to be able to connect. Especially young people. It's good to be able to see that there are other gay people around, and to be able to interact. But at the same time I think it's a very adult world. The commercial gay world – which Grindr is part of – is a very adult, very sexual world. And I worry when I see these young kids coming out on to the gay scene, and everything is about sex. There's no real concept of relationships."

Others condemn it more directly. "Grindr's addictive," writes one man – the ex-boyfriend of a close friend – by email. "Grindr and Gaydar [the UK's biggest gay dating site]... A lot of gay men have addiction issues. I feel crap even writing it, but there it is. We drink, we use drugs and we use sex to overcome the shame we feel. And we feel worse because we know we shouldn't feel shame, we should feel pride – so we abuse drugs and sex more. Things like Grindr and Gaydar enable that sort of sex, sex which is compulsive and which dehumanises you; and means you in turn dehumanise the people you are having sex with." He puts me in touch with G, a man he met while seeking treatment for sex addiction. "I've lost entire weekends to sex," writes G. "Downloading porn, going on Grindr, meeting men whose names I don't find out, having sex; downloading more porn..."

"Low self-esteem," says Todd. "I see it a lot in gay men – it's inevitable after years of repression and shame. And what's better for self-esteem than someone having sex with you?"

Could Grindr work for a straight market? There is, I think, an undeniable gender divide on the things that men and women will do for sex, and the things they expect and want from sex. Yes, women are capable of having inconsequential flings. We are capable of one-night stands. We are capable of having sex without becoming emotionally involved. FitFinder – which allowed undergraduate users to post descriptions of people they'd seen and fancied on their university-dedicated website – became extremely popular earlier this spring, before university authorities banned it, which would suggest that there is a straight market for a location-specific dating concept. But I'm not sure Grindr could fully accommodate the complexities of male-female interactions. The gender politics, the power games, the ebb and flow of interest, the tedious but totally authentic need most men feel to pursue a potential sexual conquest...

I ask a handful of straight women – some single, some not – if they think they might be interested in a Grindr equivalent; they say they can just about envisage it working, although none of them would commit to the notion of using it themselves. The straight men I poll say they'd think less of any woman who "advertised herself like that" – and then all insisted on downloading gay Grindr on to their phones, "just to see how it works".

If anyone can make and sell a straight Grindr, Simkhai can. He does concede: "I'm a gay man and I know how to think like a gay man... actually, my sense is I know how to think like a man. I'm not a woman. I don't know how to think like a woman." Yet he says he gets more requests for a straight Grindr from women than he does from straight men. "Many more. Which might be because straight women are often friends with gay men, so know about Grindr... But I do think it would be relevant for women. I do." Furthermore: "We'll redesign it; we'll call it something different, market it differently. We have to. Gay men are very territorial. They want to keep it all to themselves, but they say: 'If you have to make a straight version, call it something else. Grindr is ours.'"

I am still sceptical, but then Simkhai says: "This notion of: 'Who is around me? Who is in this room now? Who else is like me?' – this is not just a gay thing. And this thing where: 'I want a more fulfilling life. A richer life!' This is not just a gay thing either. Gay men don't have the monopoly on loneliness and isolation." He is right, of course. As I say goodbye to Joel Simkhai, I find myself thinking: however straight Grindr plays out for us – even if it opens up a Pandora's box on our sexuality, alters forever the way men and women relate, leaves us vulnerable to a whole new world of emotional and sexual complications – bring it on. It's going to make life more interesting.

grindr.com
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RyanWreck

(I read all the rules in this thread and the Troniks porn thread and what I am writing seems to be OK since it is legal everywhere and I am not posting photos). I've always wondered how sites like the link I am providing at the bottom stay legal. The children are clothed and it is "legal according to US code 18" but doesn't seem legal as far as certain obscenity charges are concerned, but it is 100% legal in America and every where else. And it is very obvious that these "newstar" sites are designed for a very specific audience.

http://newstar-jenna.info/

tiny_tove

I am not clicking since I am at work, but i can imagine which sort of site it is.
There were plenty of Russian sites like this a few years ago that lead through the links to harder stuff. There was an analysis on these on some Italian police/intelligence sites.
I think these sort of sites are considered illegal.
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RyanWreck

Quote from: tiny_tove on July 06, 2010, 09:45:51 AM

I think these sort of sites are considered illegal.

I would think so but they are not considered illegal, they very clearly state it all over the site (if someone has to continually state that what they are doing is legal then you should assume that what they wish to do, or are doing behind the scenes, is completely illegal). I am also wondering what types of parents let their children do this and consent to it without understanding and seeing what is really happening. It must be happening in another country that doesn't require consent signature from parents. And if it is happening in the states or in some European countries than these parents who sign the consent forms either know what is happening and need money/enjoy it or are the most ignorant fucks ever.

Material that is rougher isn't even hard to find these days, especially with all of these image forums ("chans") popping up left and right. If you know which is which then it becomes simple. Over at my forums (which are about music, I should add) we were talking about extreme porno and some of us realized we had all seen a very, very harsh photo that was taken off the image "chan" within minutes of its post but somehow 4 guys all from different parts of the world had seen it. It was taken down quickly, as are all illegal photos, but it only takes a minute or two for thousands of people to see it, before it is taken down, and save it to their HD if they so wish and from then on sharing is caring.