GREY WOLVES appreciation thread

[Goat93]

current cultural atmosphere does not allow groups such as grey wolves to operate in the murky grey area that was so fertile for artists in the 80s and 90s. if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck etc. seems to be the mantra of the younger generation, even tho it's wholly ridiculous when applied to art.

i don't think that the cultural atmosphere changed, only the possibilities changed. shitstorms are more direct with social media, also thanks to the lesser concentration rate on one topic, they are really short before forgotten. there are enough grey areas and people, who use this for their own agenda.

[Phenol]

Thanks to FA for a thoughtful reply. I think the question of being comfortable with violence is particularly on point. To truly operate outside the given framework of society you would have to reject any given notion of what is legitimate or acceptable in the first place. Not automatically rejecting non state approved violence as a legitimate measure is one such way to give society and its rules the middle finger. The leftist author, although much more sophisticated than the usual cretins, doesn't seem to fully get that there are people out there who really don't abide to any of his worldviews and who actually reject everything, including politics, in their art and lives.

[tiny_tove]

Maybe (and I underline maybe) his tools for conflict are limited to keyboard and books and pressuring autorities to do stuff for him, maybe the same authorities he claims to be against.

[Phenol]

Maybe (and I underline maybe) his tools for conflict are limited to keyboard and books and pressuring autorities to do stuff for him, maybe the same authorities he claims to be against.

Indeed, but don't we all do this? We may hate the authorities, but we rely on them/it when we get sick or need a salary...inner life and social life (life in society) are not the same, though, and rebellion can also be done from within.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

.... who really don't abide to any of his worldviews and who actually reject everything, including politics, in their art and lives.

In case of GW, it isn't necessary about rejection, than re-evaluation? You got the child like anarchist who cling on ideas like absolute non-hierarchy. Even to the point of enforcing system against it. As example, certain Finnish organization had system of changing personnel of the  group, one from another, in hopes of avoiding one person becoming leader after some time. Creating system that destroys emerging natural hierarchy based on peoples personality and habits. As soon as it seems there is no longer absolute equality, but someone actually is in charge, so to say, then mix the groups to "unhealthy" hierarchies won't form. Not sure how well that succeeded in long run, especially when it is likely nothing long lasting came from those organizations...

Instead of absolute rejection, I could imagine, that Grey Wolves is indeed for re-evaluation. Even from point of view leaning towards anarchism, there is very easy practical definition for the word. Evaluation and test of hierarchies. Anything that is relic of past, founded on false principles, based on oppression rather than any... lets use word natural reason, even if it ain't very accurate here. It can be re-evaluated, crushed and improved. It is almost like Nietzschean method to philosophize with hammer.  Some things are hollow, obsolete, fragile... other things not. If hierarchy and power structure survives the hammering, it may be there for reason. As example given by one of the most well known anarchist spokeperson, adult preventing kid from walking against red light, that is already moment of authority and power. In case, you prevented kid from being hit by a car, it was totally legitimate act. Not malicious oppression.  Many times, one legitimate act will have entire culture build over it, eventually being structure that doesn't really survive even brief re-evaluation.

In case of GW or artists working under such principles, where you face difficult questions, that are also interesting. See other topic, collage art on art section of this forum, Lehrer commenting about sort of crypto transgression. Despite artists like GW would be kind of brutally outrageous in their visuals, it feels to me, it is indeed meant for re-thinking something. And more precisely, not something specific, but exactly the stimulation to do it also when there is not images of violence and visible oppression triggering it.

If feel this is not rejecting, but quite opposite. Anti-passivity, actively taking part of world instead of accepting it as given.

[Andrew McIntosh]

I recall Ulex Xane referring to the Grey Wolves as anarchists, but unaligned to any particular sub-strain of anarchism. Like all other ideologies, there are always sub "-isms" that tend to compete with each other for legitimacy, but the Wolves rejected all that and seemed to adopt the term "anarchism" as more a cultural expression of ideas, rather than distinct political ideology.

I imagine their politics were very much time-and-place, coming out of working class England in the 1980's and '90's. Political and other cultural ideas were unavoidable in that background, and the Grey Wolves seem to pretty much filter everything they were exposed to through their own Industrial culture filter.

They were never didactic, in that they explicitly expressed any particular line, but their propaganda and lyrics are full of a lot of conviction. "We have been accused of being a sinister, all pervasive influence. We are doing our best to be just that!". Expressions of power through being below the norm, below control. The "Cultural Terrorist Manifesto" might probably be the closest written word thing, outside of interviews, where they state their intentions, and even that leaves plenty of wiggle-room for your own ideas.

If anything, their anarchism was reflected in that kind of "we are everywhere" mentality that was the image of people like the Angry Brigade, who bombed a few places in England in the 1970's, and who's manifestos had stuff like "we could be the person sitting next to you in the bus", which had a lot of influence on anarchists over the years. I believe also the Grey Wolves were involved in the mail art scene (which tape trading and so on could be said to be a part of), which also reflected that kind of cultural egalitarianism. They were open to contact with anyone during the time they were the most active.

These are more personal observations, of course. I never met or knew those chaps so I'm second guessing as much as most anyone else.

[Cranial Blast]

GW were a right-wing project,

nope they were not
name was linked to some sub-branch of TOPY, they stated this several times since day one. strategy is classic use power to criticize power (and piss off everyone)

They used shock tactics like many others in a very vehement and tasty way, but their background was into Crass and TOPY not Turkish nationalism. Even if it would have been a huge provocation, same as con-dom.

I highly suggest to get the open wound magazines were they explain some tactics and suggest actions.

The cultural terrorist manifesto as well as the DPI manifesto give some hints.

There was a - partly wrong - analysis of them and others published by lefties "the unacceptable face of freedom" that I suggest to write. It doesn't clarify but is a classic attempt interpret something the left wing author doesn't fully get.

I think one of the most and more interesting aspects of the Grey Wolves is the question of is their work ment to be slated right or left? I think it can be interpreted differently upon different listeners, despite the groups "real motives, or intentions". I think that is what makes these perticular projects interesting, they kind of flirt with provocative natured themes and images, while in the nucleus of ambiguity, but it still boils down to the listener and their interpretation perhaps.

[nezalezhnye]

Have Trev or Padbury ever commented on the Rock-O-Rama synthpop band The Final Sound, who were originally also called The Grey Wolves? Any link or just pure coincidence?

[burdizzo1]

I've never seen a comment from either of them, but I think the Final Sound's Grey Wolves would pre-date 'our' Grey Wolves by a few years. I wouldn't see The Grey Wolves as being 'nationalist' in the way Final Sound was. Yeah, so just a coincidence, sadly!

[Into_The_Void]

I think one of the most and more interesting aspects of the Grey Wolves is the question of is their work ment to be slated right or left? I think it can be interpreted differently upon different listeners, despite the groups "real motives, or intentions". I think that is what makes these perticular projects interesting, they kind of flirt with provocative natured themes and images, while in the nucleus of ambiguity, but it still boils down to the listener and their interpretation perhaps.

Yeah and that is one of the characteristics which make Grey Wolves's aesthetic, and industrial music overall, intriguing.