The Advancement Of PE/Industrial In 2022

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Even the more niche mainstream magazines (stuff like The Wire) can't seem to make heads or tails of "the genre"; it's still just always back to Dilloway and Wolf Eyes. If anything, stuff closer to ensemble free-jazz (Crazy Doberman, Wasteland Jazz Unit) is doing more to "advance" the world of noise at large than anything, even if it's just bringing more attention to the scene in a way that's palatable to some portion of the masses by incorporating novel instrumentation and melodic structures.

Few years ago when Wire journalist felt like new Cloama album was pushing into interesting territories with sound and wanted to write review of it, I sent physical copy upon request. After writing was done, review submitted, editor told review is not going to be published as there is potentially problematic connections. Not that there was anything wrong with Cloama. In such case, I would assume, most of industrial/pe and even harsh noise can't be on Wire. There is always something potentially problematic lurking few clicks away.

What happens when radical forms created by youth become ossified and acceptable? Whether this is black metal, gangster rap or techno (which all emerged simultaneously), the process is the same.

History of contemporary youth cultures is quite new, since this type of youth cultures barely existed... some argue, before 1955 or so. Sure jazz and that type, but not sure can it be rated predominantly youth culture? Many times it feels, the youth is consequence of who had free time and cultural acceptance to do certain things. More we go back, the shorter the period of "youth" was before dragged into "adult life". A lot of former youth cultures, you see the bands operated pretty much exactly in period before getting "real job" and family. In our age, difference is that already most have parents who grew up into the "youth culture". And even bigger difference that the free time, resources and creativity are not exclusively qualities of youth and also the real job or family is not necessarily goals nor mandatory evils for a lot of people.

In noise we have endless examples of that noise blossomed in time when some of artists were young, but for a lot of relevant artists it wasn't like punk or hc or metal, where teenagers made couple good albums and quit (or continued too long and often turned lame). In noise, you got plenty of examples of artist who started... and never stopped. Examples of artists who even got better, during 30+ years non-stop activity. I don't think noise is "youth culture", for a lot of reasons, and therefore should not be treated as such.

[Phenol]

I have been thinking a little more about this topic. I tink the questions, aside from the talk of reception, are: what do we mean by advancement, is it necessarily the same as innovation, and what does innovation mean in this context?

It seems like everything is a kind of grave robbery these days. Some new take on already established approaches and sounds. This is probably because we have endless acces to music history and can listen to all those records that were not available to most people before. Then again, wasn't it always like this, people took something and rearranged it into something else? Take TG, f.ex. They are heralded as true innovators, creators of industrial as a genre. But didn't they just take '60s psychedelia and mix it with classical avant garde, some '50s-'60s beatnik poetry/counter culture and fuse that with the punk approach of their own time? Sure, the mixture was (or felt?) new, but the elements were essentially already available cultural templates. Same thing with the occult dabblings that followed.

So what is the difference between TG and bands of today who mix already existing sounds/approaches/aesthetics into something that is (or feels like) their own blend? To me it seems true innovation never existed, just small ajustments to already existing sounds. Free jazz was not an innovation, f.ex., but a rearrangement of jazz standards, and industrial was also not an innovation, just another rearrangement of - well - sounds and cultural "stuff". So the way forward is then simply new artists who create more rearrangements and ajustments? Sounds like a boring vison, perhaps, but I think that is how music has always evolved historically...

[Zeno Marx]

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but aren't many of you essentially saying innovation and advancement take a back seat to quality?  I know I'm not convinced that innovation and advancement are all that important in comparison to quality.  The work is going to stand if it is good, regardless.  Now, HONOR_IS_KING! is in a little bit of a pickle because he wants to feed his family and prepare for retirement with his music.  I say that with no pretext.  It does, however, dictate that he has to do something different in order to achieve those goals.  The best of the greatest of the best haven't been able to make a living and prepare for retirement with bona fide classic work.  There's no other option than to find a new style or a new something else.  We know it cannot be achieved with simply great work.  He's going to have to get lucky and stumble upon the lottery winning ticket.  That isn't to undermine his effort or artistic abilities, either.  Again, no pretext.  Not only is he going to have to innovate, but then all the other X, Y, and Zs are going to have to fall into mystical and lucky alignment, because that's how it works.  That's how it always worked.  It doesn't matter what discipline or product is in question.  You gotta have the stuff, but then you have to have the world forces lining up to take it all out of the basement and into "Hotel California" number of ears.

[Verkhaner]

Correct me if I'm misunderstanding, but aren't many of you essentially saying innovation and advancement take a back seat to quality?  I know I'm not convinced that innovation and advancement are all that important in comparison to quality.  The work is going to stand if it is good, regardless.  Now, HONOR_IS_KING! is in a little bit of a pickle because he wants to feed his family and prepare for retirement with his music.  I say that with no pretext.  It does, however, dictate that he has to do something different in order to achieve those goals.  The best of the greatest of the best haven't been able to make a living and prepare for retirement with bona fide classic work.  There's no other option than to find a new style or a new something else.  We know it cannot be achieved with simply great work.  He's going to have to get lucky and stumble upon the lottery winning ticket.  That isn't to undermine his effort or artistic abilities, either.  Again, no pretext.  Not only is he going to have to innovate, but then all the other X, Y, and Zs are going to have to fall into mystical and lucky alignment, because that's how it works.  That's how it always worked.  It doesn't matter what discipline or product is in question.  You gotta have the stuff, but then you have to have the world forces lining up to take it all out of the basement and into "Hotel California" number of ears.

I would also agree that quality is way more important than innovation. Of course, innovation should be acknowledged and many will say it's necessary, but I would choose something GOOD over something innovative any day of the week. I just came about a comment on Snuff which someone has posted on Discogs, attacking the band for sounding "just like Whitehouse and Ramleh". Despite the fact that that isnt entirely true, my response would still be... so what? It's not like we are being drowned in amazing temporary PE, so why criticise the good stuff for supposed lack of innovation?

My personal take on advancement is probably just "getting better" and "appreciating and / or creating something good". Innovation isnt irrelevant, but I have often had the impression that it often felt a bit forced.

[Thermophile]

Industrial/Noise/PE are doomed to follow the fate of all avant-garde art after some historical changes have occurred after the 90's and especially after the internet.

as J.Baudrillard have written:

"He claims that art, for instance, has penetrated all spheres of existence, whereby the dreams of the artistic avant-garde for art to inform life has been realized. Yet, in Baudrillard's vision, with the realization of art in everyday life, art itself as a separate and transcendent phenomenon has disappeared.

Baudrillard calls this situation "transaesthetics" which he relates to similar phenomena of "transpolitics," "transsexuality," and "transeconomics," in which everything becomes political, sexual, and economic, so that these domains, like art, lose their specificity, their boundaries, and their distinctness. The result is a confused condition where there are no more criteria of value, of judgement, or of taste, and the function of the normative thus collapses in a morass of indifference and inertia. And so, although Baudrillard sees art proliferating everywhere, and writes in The Transparency of Evil that "talk about Art is increasing even more rapidly" , the power of art — of art as adventure, art as negation of reality, art as redeeming illusion, art as another dimension and so on — has disappeared. Art is everywhere but there "are no more fundamental rules" to differentiate art from other objects and "no more criteria of judgement or of pleasure" . For Baudrillard, contemporary individuals are indifferent toward taste and manifest only distaste: "tastes are determinate no longer"

What he writes above applies perfectly to the industrial. I remember getting thrilled by noise artwork and fascination with hardcore porn aesthetics (Merzbow art etc and sexorama compilations), now hardcore porn is everywhere.
The experiments of Genesis P.Orridge with gender are almost mainstream and in academia these days.
The exploration of visceral masculine urges in Whitehouse, SJ, Ultra are almost picked up by the manosphere.
The death and carnage from various disparage realities of the world that Genocide Organ brought over (wars, murders etc) are all over the web.
Is no longer about grounding the westerners and their delusional lifestyle about what most of the world outside the west is about or how western world used to be in the past.
If you read interviews by Coil, Vivenza etc they all believed into some grand narrative  "enriching the lives of future generations with their music" "taking futurism to the next level" etc

The old timers believed into some grand narrative where their art is posited either against or parallel to the mainstream narrative. So what is the narrative the modern artists in the scene are telling to themselves for keep doing what they are doing?

I tried to address this meaninglessness and indifference with my release "Manifold Decomposition" LP.
I resisted for 10 years releasing any material I was working on.
Instead I only found a semblance of meaning in sound fetishism and destroying/altering my previous material,
processing and re-iterating the sounds to absurdity until I got fed up and released it.

[Phenol]

Industrial/Noise/PE are doomed to follow the fate of all avant-garde art after some historical changes have occurred after the 90's and especially after the internet.

as J.Baudrillard have written:

"He claims that art, for instance, has penetrated all spheres of existence, whereby the dreams of the artistic avant-garde for art to inform life has been realized. Yet, in Baudrillard's vision, with the realization of art in everyday life, art itself as a separate and transcendent phenomenon has disappeared.

Baudrillard calls this situation "transaesthetics" which he relates to similar phenomena of "transpolitics," "transsexuality," and "transeconomics," in which everything becomes political, sexual, and economic, so that these domains, like art, lose their specificity, their boundaries, and their distinctness. The result is a confused condition where there are no more criteria of value, of judgement, or of taste, and the function of the normative thus collapses in a morass of indifference and inertia. And so, although Baudrillard sees art proliferating everywhere, and writes in The Transparency of Evil that "talk about Art is increasing even more rapidly" , the power of art — of art as adventure, art as negation of reality, art as redeeming illusion, art as another dimension and so on — has disappeared. Art is everywhere but there "are no more fundamental rules" to differentiate art from other objects and "no more criteria of judgement or of pleasure" . For Baudrillard, contemporary individuals are indifferent toward taste and manifest only distaste: "tastes are determinate no longer"

What he writes above applies perfectly to the industrial. I remember getting thrilled by noise artwork and fascination with hardcore porn aesthetics (Merzbow art etc and sexorama compilations), now hardcore porn is everywhere.
The experiments of Genesis P.Orridge with gender are almost mainstream and in academia these days.
The exploration of visceral masculine urges in Whitehouse, SJ, Ultra are almost picked up by the manosphere.
The death and carnage from various disparage realities of the world that Genocide Organ brought over (wars, murders etc) are all over the web.
Is no longer about grounding the westerners and their delusional lifestyle about what most of the world outside the west is about or how western world used to be in the past.
If you read interviews by Coil, Vivenza etc they all believed into some grand narrative  "enriching the lives of future generations with their music" "taking futurism to the next level" etc

The old timers believed into some grand narrative where their art is posited either against or parallel to the mainstream narrative. So what is the narrative the modern artists in the scene are telling to themselves for keep doing what they are doing?

I tried to address this meaninglessness and indifference with my release "Manifold Decomposition" LP.
I resisted for 10 years releasing any material I was working on.
Instead I only found a semblance of meaning in sound fetishism and destroying/altering my previous material,
processing and re-iterating the sounds to absurdity until I got fed up and released it.

Are we basically delusional, then, when we're creating industrial (not to be confused with art, imo...) using already available templates and formulas simply because we like it and want more of it and think it's still worth doing and that new sounds and aesthetics can arise from utilizing the same techniques and topics as the "old timers"? And wasn't aetshetics always meaningless, anyway, when it comes down to it? I think the industrial approach actually deals with that meaninglessness pretty directly in the re-uses of sounds, ideas, images etc.

[Balor/SS1535]

Industrial/Noise/PE are doomed to follow the fate of all avant-garde art after some historical changes have occurred after the 90's and especially after the internet.

as J.Baudrillard have written:

"He claims that art, for instance, has penetrated all spheres of existence, whereby the dreams of the artistic avant-garde for art to inform life has been realized. Yet, in Baudrillard's vision, with the realization of art in everyday life, art itself as a separate and transcendent phenomenon has disappeared.

Baudrillard calls this situation "transaesthetics" which he relates to similar phenomena of "transpolitics," "transsexuality," and "transeconomics," in which everything becomes political, sexual, and economic, so that these domains, like art, lose their specificity, their boundaries, and their distinctness. The result is a confused condition where there are no more criteria of value, of judgement, or of taste, and the function of the normative thus collapses in a morass of indifference and inertia. And so, although Baudrillard sees art proliferating everywhere, and writes in The Transparency of Evil that "talk about Art is increasing even more rapidly" , the power of art — of art as adventure, art as negation of reality, art as redeeming illusion, art as another dimension and so on — has disappeared. Art is everywhere but there "are no more fundamental rules" to differentiate art from other objects and "no more criteria of judgement or of pleasure" . For Baudrillard, contemporary individuals are indifferent toward taste and manifest only distaste: "tastes are determinate no longer"

What he writes above applies perfectly to the industrial. I remember getting thrilled by noise artwork and fascination with hardcore porn aesthetics (Merzbow art etc and sexorama compilations), now hardcore porn is everywhere.
The experiments of Genesis P.Orridge with gender are almost mainstream and in academia these days.
The exploration of visceral masculine urges in Whitehouse, SJ, Ultra are almost picked up by the manosphere.
The death and carnage from various disparage realities of the world that Genocide Organ brought over (wars, murders etc) are all over the web.
Is no longer about grounding the westerners and their delusional lifestyle about what most of the world outside the west is about or how western world used to be in the past.
If you read interviews by Coil, Vivenza etc they all believed into some grand narrative  "enriching the lives of future generations with their music" "taking futurism to the next level" etc

The old timers believed into some grand narrative where their art is posited either against or parallel to the mainstream narrative. So what is the narrative the modern artists in the scene are telling to themselves for keep doing what they are doing?

I tried to address this meaninglessness and indifference with my release "Manifold Decomposition" LP.
I resisted for 10 years releasing any material I was working on.
Instead I only found a semblance of meaning in sound fetishism and destroying/altering my previous material,
processing and re-iterating the sounds to absurdity until I got fed up and released it.

Are we basically delusional, then, when we're creating industrial (not to be confused with art, imo...) using already available templates and formulas simply because we like it and want more of it and think it's still worth doing and that new sounds and aesthetics can arise from utilizing the same techniques and topics as the "old timers"?

Solely going off of what was said above, I do not think it would be delusional if you do it while keeping what you have said in mind.  If you do it "simply because we like it and want more of it," then there is no reason that it cannot, should not, etc. be done in a way that is, for lack of better words, philosophically self-consistent.  However, whether it is possible for industrial and noise music to be genuinely transgressive or transformative in the way espoused by the early pioneers and representatives, I doubt in the contemporary context.

Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.  It's easy (in the US, at least) to seem shocking or "counter-cultural" by simply opposing one side of the political spectrum, but that would seem to just embroil you in the cultural wars that are now central to so many areas of culture.  Whatever the answer is, I think it needs to be individualized.

[XXX]

Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.

to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.

[Balor/SS1535]

Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.

to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.

I know it has been said before (and by people who have phrased/considered it more delicately than me), but a lot of the problem has to come from paying too much heed to what others (i.e. people from outside the subculture) "consider" industrial to be.

If I remember my simplified history correctly, couldn't it be said that power electronics was born out of Whitehouse's rejection of the social function that Throbbing Gristle ascribed to their use of transgressive subject matter?

[SIEGSIEGSIEG]

Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.

to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.

Which subjects in PE are no longer transgressive? From wikipedia: "Transgressive art is art that aims to outrage or violate basic morals and sensibilities". I would say you can tick the box "violate basic morals and sensibilities" with most normal people when it comes to any PE. Transgression is there even if there's no ongoing public outrage 24/7. Even if the audience is not shocked, they can still find the music and visuals to be transgressive in a good way.

I find most PE to be transgressive for myself and it does not mean I am shocked or I do not like it. It's the transgressive quality of the music that makes me listen to PE. It's pure fucking transgressive filth most of the time and it has a cathartic and therapeutic effect because of that.

There is tremendous amount of power in PE as an art. And by power I mean that people are willing to voice their opinion that this shouldn't exist or this should be censored, this should not be allowed there etc. There was a huge discussion in a finnish experimental music facebook group with thousands of people (Mikko talked about this somewhere in the forums also), because people felt that ANY act associated with Freak Animals should not be allowed posted in the group, because it did not fit their worldview. People were leaving the group left and right and voicing strongly their opinions against and for.

My point being here is that you do not need to show much to people outside PE culture and you get an outrage. There are no public outrages, because the acts that would cause the outrage are working so underground and just focusing on the art. If they wanted more outrage it would be very easy. But most PE acts probably enjoy making and presenting the transgressive art to the people who are interested in it, rather than shocking the public. For example Bizarre uproar would cause a strong public backlash almost certainly to a more mainstream venue and the bands performing with it if they were non-PE. Filth and Violence label is (as far as I know) as underground as possible because there was strong opposition from the leftist/anarchist circles in Finland and sort of public outlash.

This is pretty rambling by me, but my point being is that if you count transgressive as something that causes public outrage and shock I am 100 percent sure you can cause that if you just reveal some of the filth to the mainstream audience in a form or another. Most people just don't enjoy being targeted online for the art they do if they lead a separate life that has nothing to do with PE. Or that is that I would imagine.

[Balor/SS1535]

Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.

to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.

Which subjects in PE are no longer transgressive? From wikipedia: "Transgressive art is art that aims to outrage or violate basic morals and sensibilities". I would say you can tick the box "violate basic morals and sensibilities" with most normal people when it comes to any PE. Transgression is there even if there's no ongoing public outrage 24/7. Even if the audience is not shocked, they can still find the music and visuals to be transgressive in a good way.

I find most PE to be transgressive for myself and it does not mean I am shocked or I do not like it. It's the transgressive quality of the music that makes me listen to PE. It's pure fucking transgressive filth most of the time and it has a cathartic and therapeutic effect because of that.

There is tremendous amount of power in PE as an art. And by power I mean that people are willing to voice their opinion that this shouldn't exist or this should be censored, this should not be allowed there etc. There was a huge discussion in a finnish experimental music facebook group with thousands of people (Mikko talked about this somewhere in the forums also), because people felt that ANY act associated with Freak Animals should not be allowed posted in the group, because it did not fit their worldview. People were leaving the group left and right and voicing strongly their opinions against and for.

My point being here is that you do not need to show much to people outside PE culture and you get an outrage. There are no public outrages, because the acts that would cause the outrage are working so underground and just focusing on the art. If they wanted more outrage it would be very easy. But most PE acts probably enjoy making and presenting the transgressive art to the people who are interested in it, rather than shocking the public. For example Bizarre uproar would cause a strong public backlash almost certainly to a more mainstream venue and the bands performing with it if they were non-PE. Filth and Violence label is (as far as I know) as underground as possible because there was strong opposition from the leftist/anarchist circles in Finland and sort of public outlash.

This is pretty rambling by me, but my point being is that if you count transgressive as something that causes public outrage and shock I am 100 percent sure you can cause that if you just reveal some of the filth to the mainstream audience in a form or another. Most people just don't enjoy being targeted online for the art they do if they lead a separate life that has nothing to do with PE. Or that is that I would imagine.

That is a key point that I didn't consider.  It's true that transgression does not equate with producing a public shock.  With the Internet too, it is easy to narrow your worldview into a focus only on the niche subject matter that you find interesting at the expense of forgetting how the average person would view it.

I think I was using "transgressive" when I should have been saying "counter-cultural."  In America right now almost everything becomes a left-right political issue, so I am wondering what place, if any, industrial might have in it as a potential agent of change.

[Balor/SS1535]

Also, thinking about it more, there is no need for transgression to be inherently social in any way, there just needs to be some set of rules/norms in place.  It might make for more interesting transgressive art, for instance, for someone to deliberately transgress upon their self-imposed morals.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Frankly, I don't know what would be truly transgressive now.

to me this is the crux of the situation. if a genre founded on transgression is no longer transgressive, what really is it? how does one advance a genre that many now consider a meme?
i often joke with my band mates that we are simply the new form of a led zeppelin cover band in a smokey bar. we are simply playing the sounds you want to hear.

There is tremendous amount of power in PE as an art. And by power I mean that people are willing to voice their opinion that this shouldn't exist or this should be censored, this should not be allowed there etc. There was a huge discussion in a finnish experimental music facebook group with thousands of people (Mikko talked about this somewhere in the forums also), because people felt that ANY act associated with Freak Animals should not be allowed posted in the group, because it did not fit their worldview. People were leaving the group left and right and voicing strongly their opinions against and for.

I have talked about this multiple times. Also currently latest SI#13 has couple writing that has a bit about transgression.
I think it is pointless is you treat word transgressive as if it would be like... it would need to be almost paranormal? Argument, that because something exists, something is visible in society, it would no longer be transgressive.

It is absolutely and without doubt possible to find in blink of an eye what is a violation of accepted or imposed boundaries, especially those of social acceptability even within noise scene or art world. It doesn't mean everybody would be offended. It doesn't meant it would be done simply for sake of being offensive. From day one, transgressive art had its audience who liked what it had to offer. Even when it may have made them uncomfortable or confused. You got guys who liked it for being extreme, and you got the people who considered it was using language and iconography that spoke about world in other ways than is common.

Sure I agree with Thermophile post few messages ago, that there is sort of inflation of material. In media that is flooded with true crime, what is the need of true crime power electronics? In society flooded with hardcore pornography, what is the point of sex-noise tape? I think these are relevant questions, but also utterly easy for me personally:

I would assume, anyone would see the difference what is with yet another true crime podcast episode about some petty criminal, and dumb subhuman wreck who just happened to axeslaughter his family, vs. bizarre unique serial killer?  I am sure people will also see the difference yet another pointless onlyfans cam-whore, and the protagonists who created juicy xxx culture based on skills, ideas, balls. In countries where you were under hunt of authorities, but just wanted to put out next issue of "Spanking Ritual" into obscure book shop shelves. As couple simple short examples. There is absolutely HUGE difference of the mundane house-wife true crime exploitation that floods the media now, and... well, something that goes beyond it.  There is enormous difference of business of contemporary whoredom vs pornographic creativity.

One of qualities of advancement of PE/industrial, has already been increased context and being specific. Back in the day, it could have been that you have seen texas chainsaw massacre or got issue of Hustler to cut couple pictures to cover and that's fine. Some probably still do it, but the pornography of many contemporary PE has been very specific. How, why and by who it happens, if not made by creator of sound, how it is linked to the work, is probably vastly different. I remain absolute thrilled by early Merzbow idea of "lowest arts", but also realize that many other approach xxx related matters from another perspective. If someone does not see what is the context and sees only naked skin, I would guess it is only natural.

It is up to debate, what one means with the term transgressive art.  When Nick Zedd was using term, it was for "art that aims to outrage or violate basic morals and sensibilities".
Due a lot of noise or power electronics is not very visible or public, and that it reaches mostly the lovers, not haters, it may not be intended to violate morals of public, but we can surely see how often, and how easily it factually does it, even in context of noise scene.

Advancement of PE / Industrial has happened all the time, I already gave fairly big list of who I think are musically pushing it. There is also thematic push happening. Expansion of themes, and not only for sake of being "different", but dealing with something that is personally capturing and it naturally goes deeper. Lets say yesterday there was interview of Ed / Final Solution on WCN podcast. Doing noise project focusing on walmart.. or more precisely on the consumer society hysteria that goes into level of insanity. In a way critique to consumer society is nothing new in industrial music. Part of it has been tesco-disco from beginning so to say, but the way he described his obsessive observations of whole thing, the videos of incidents, I believe he even hosts walmart themed fb group just for all the freaky shit happening on aisles, it has sort of Ballardian quality to it. Same time repulsive and even offensive (to me personally), but depicts certain psychology by having guys to approach it as banally as theme of sex.