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Author Topic: WHITE CENTIPEDE NOISE PODCAST  (Read 78737 times)
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« Reply #300 on: September 26, 2022, 06:35:40 PM »

Out now - Episode 35 with Manuel Pereira of Narcolepsia!!!

https://youtu.be/vvSA_nfeuDY
https://youtu.be/vvSA_nfeuDY
https://youtu.be/vvSA_nfeuDY
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« Reply #301 on: September 27, 2022, 08:53:46 AM »

Good one again. I guess longest thinking moments could be cut away to get faster pace... but in other hand, not in such a hurry, haha.. 

Excuse for long message cluttering WCN topic, but there is interesting thing what is mentioned, but no real conclusion made. Those who have not yet watched the episode, there is question about why CD would be 10-15 euro, while tape is more expensive to make, but can't be usually sold for high price. Prices used to be 5-7e. Now they are 7-9e. Some labels, more.

I think question of the prices of tapes vs prices of CD or records, is something where most tend to forget that price of format in general, is not only the manufacturing cost. In most music styles, there are A LOT of other costs involved in making album, where the actually price of pressing the CD, especially the disc itself, is the smallest. One can think the usual music band, who'll have studio, mastering, someone to make the cover art, someone to design. Of course, in underground music it can be home studio, friend mastering, self made design and all that, but many times even in something like rough metal music, cover artists can ask hundreds for front cover painting. Mastering or studio can cost several hundreds, even thousands. CD is format that enables that to take place. Perhaps necessity to buy advertising place. Even just pay add into Noise Receptor, Noisextra and WCN podcast for the CD album in question - so you make people aware there are these 300 copies you try to get rid off. What it's going to cost? Quite significant addition to mere manufacturing cost, just for sake of reaching enough people. If you send out bunch of freebies in hopes of review, or even sending out big box of royalties to overseas can add significant extra cost to CD, what isn't often calculated when you compare it with some self financed C-20...?

For small edition tape, you barely need any of that. Editions are often sold out. Manufacturing per unit, may be higher, but risk of ending up half of pressing unsold, is very small. Time or money you need to spend on promotion and arranging deals is small. And if that would be to happen that you really can't sell all, losses are small and often even tapes are possible to recycle. Yes, I agree that tape format is becoming expensive to the point that old type fun with tapes is soon gone. Still, I am sometimes amazed when people would talk about "getting your money back". As that tends to often mean exactly that. Literally getting your money back. It seems more like need of evaluation what is money and what it is one really needs? There are some people, very few, who does it for legit work. They may need money back for sake of sustaining their operations. Pretty much everybody else seems to have strange new school attitude. Everything is commodity, and everything is for profit and money is what is key element in all. To me it seems exactly zeitgeist of the culture now, another topic they deal in WCN podcast. It could be good topic to dive further. To talk in what ways noise is alternative culture, if it gets trapped into operation that is 100% same as mainstream culture, just less successful?

Anyways, getting your money back, is often irrelevant. Money as means of exchange can be skipped. You get back experience, you get back spark to cultivate your creative urges. You get most often life time long friendships that inspire you into new things. Even putting together special tape release.. I would think most do it, just because it is somehow rewarding. To get the task done, as unpleasant and dull as it may have been, simply getting it done is getting something back. Just this summer I was talking to one kid, who father I know, who was insisting to get paid for chopping firewood. I asked him where comes this obsession of money? Don't you realize you get paid, in building muscles, growing motoric skills, stamina, experience all together, being respected for being useful. Money should be the most irrelevant of your needs. Opportunity to man up and not ask for hand outs.

Anyways, in CD price, besides it traditionally enable to cover costs involved in making the album (besides pressing of disc), price is most of all enabler of wider distribution. If you got a tape, priced on 8 euro. Wholesale might be 5 even 6. Plus post. Distributors will have to sell item so high, people are no longer buying. For guy like me, who is in unpleasant situation of having to pay taxes, getting tape for 6e+shipping.. probably around 7-8e depending where it comes from. Putting price tag of 12 euros would seem harsh, but VAT (value added tax) takes 24% and leaves 1,5e profit. That is profit, unless you count out any packaging material of money lost in offering flat-rate shipping that is below the actual shipping cost. If most of items you'd basically sell at loss, that may be fine, but in long term not be sustainable system to sustain operations. All record stores and mailorders probably understand this. Fact that you can wholesale item to shop or distro for price, that they have still chance to have small cut for themselves, but price remains close to what original label is asking. That is usually mandatory. Some sort of psychological reason, that if labels sells cd for 5usd, most customers don't want to pay 12 euro for it. Just because feeling someone is ripping them off. When label sets price to 12usd, wholesales at 5usd and dealer sells for 12euro, everybody is happy. While some people think cheap price makes people buy stuff, I must say most often it might be that slightly higher price and suitable format enables wider distribution.

I may have mentioned before, but as single example, one could wonder how many copies of something like Human Larvae tapes sold to Japan? Being often editions of 100, one could suspect not that many. Then latest CD on Freak Animal, I guess close to 50 copies when there. Tape could never do it. CD priced on bargain level could not do either. Too expensive collectibles that have to be ordered at your own store couldn't either. What I am interested in, is not thinking how small scene must be, because there is not so much visible reactions. I would rather think how could all these thousands and thousands of people made aware of particular release or make it reachable for some of them. Of course not that huge amount of money was made with selling 50 CD's to Japan, but if one day, this artist goes to do gig in Tokyo and says wow, people knew my work and there was audience - that would be the real payment. Knowing that label was useful for artist, doing something what labels (in my opinion) should be doing.

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« Reply #302 on: September 27, 2022, 10:13:46 AM »

absolutely, Mikko.

in some of these discussed topics, we were "thinking out loud", so, mostly raising questions to ourselves, doubts we share. it´s nice to have such an insightful reply from someone with much more experience in this particular topic.

I was of course not thinking of a context that requires proper studio and related costs. even costs with artwork, mastering etc are usually not that high, or can be easily negotiated, within the scope of my operation, but things aren´t always like that, of course.

also, I was thinking mostly of retail prices directly from the label. shops that carry some items and are a legit business have no other option than to raise prices in order to cover some legal costs etc and that is absolutely fine. I usually have some items in Matéria Prima, here in Portugal, and that is the case. it´s nice to have them in a brick and mortar shop and enable people a bit outside of the circuit to gain access to some of this stuff.

there was a funny episode there : we used a photo from a local older cult artist / photographer (Carlos Carreiro) in the cover of Morte Certa 5" in Poço Discos. (included his name there, of course, doing it in a DIY / tribute mentality, but never reached out to him. we didn´t even know how to do it). one day, his daughter went to the shop and found the record. she was really surprised with it, bought a few, got in touch with us via shop owner, and we even met personally and he was super cool about it and quite fascinated with how unlikely this whole situation was.

that is just a simple example to reinforce that idea : it is indeed what surrounds the whole transaction that makes for it. we all get so much more from this (or should, at least), than simply making a profit, or even covering costs.
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« Reply #303 on: September 27, 2022, 01:35:57 PM »

In my opinion, the actual investment is being able to help other artists with their releases. There are always hidden overhead costs that become pretty high when you don't only work with only friends. Even when you have a premises rent that is relatively expensive, this makes the work considerably more difficult. Of course, you experience this when you start to work more 'professional'. But I assume it takes a couple of years to find a solid foundation. All the profit we make in the future will go to other artists' releases, which is the actual "investment". To only think about money in this scene, it's better to go back to regular work and get some actual capital.
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« Reply #304 on: September 27, 2022, 01:43:49 PM »

I also think that within underground, most people are more than ready to give advice to place where to print, press, manufacture. Or, how to do it yourself. Where get supplies you need, and so on. There is pretty much no "trade secrets" so to say. Many times the "savings" tend to mean not calculating your own time and effort, though... Many times no matter how many advices and helpful links there would be, running "successful label" may be all about is someone sending out orders they get soon, within 1-2 days or taking 6 months to walk into post office.
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« Reply #305 on: September 27, 2022, 02:10:47 PM »

It is not acceptable to have to wait 6 months. Living next door to a post office is a great blessing, and it has helped a lot to get the business up and running. As a business policy, I take all shipments within 1 to 3 days. Unless it's like they're being made in production, apart from this autumn, two releases are made solely to help other artists I see deserve to get profit and have their releases spread across the world. I want to make the best of the releases, so 2 different artists are hired for this purpose. Worth to mention: for pretty high amounts of € for the artwork for the upcoming release. I could do everything by myself for free, but sometimes artistic vision is more important than materialistic needs.
 I will also try to help one of the artists with a European tour. Too many people are making "releases" that never get out for real; only a few copies get out to a public audience.
     By 2023, we have a plan to make everything even more professionalized. Have plans to create a regular cassette release at more humane prices. Something the scene is missing at the moment is: what has happened with all the compilations tapes? Sometimes it is hard to find new and promising artists because you don't know anything about the project, so the compilation tapes hint if the artists are good or not. I am not so fond of listening to Bandcamp and such because it kills the sound experience of the music. I have deleted all Bandcamps accounts I had 5 years ago, besides the one my friend has the password for, and he is pretty tricky to reach nowadays.

However, it is primarily the time aspect that is problematic at the moment from my subjective point of view. Have a dying family member and other mundane work that takes up all my waking time. So dubbing tapes in real time has not been an alternative this autumn. However, I have started investing in 3-head tape decks to release cassettes from different eras regularly in the future. The best of worlds would be to have 40 cassette decks connected in series, which is something I have in mind for the future. Who knows how things will go in the coming years? I also bought and tried out several cassette duplicators/cassette decks with some technical issues that I need to fix/repair when I have time. Newly manufactured cassette decks are not an option for our business, though. Sometimes it's like winning a lottery to get a decent tape deck. Let the treasure hunt begin.
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« Reply #306 on: October 02, 2022, 02:58:01 PM »

Good one again. I guess longest thinking moments could be cut away to get faster pace... but in other hand, not in such a hurry, haha.. 

Excuse for long message cluttering WCN topic, but there is interesting thing what is mentioned, but no real conclusion made. Those who have not yet watched the episode, there is question about why CD would be 10-15 euro, while tape is more expensive to make, but can't be usually sold for high price. Prices used to be 5-7e. Now they are 7-9e. Some labels, more.

I think question of the prices of tapes vs prices of CD or records, is something where most tend to forget that price of format in general, is not only the manufacturing cost. In most music styles, there are A LOT of other costs involved in making album, where the actually price of pressing the CD, especially the disc itself, is the smallest. (...) If you send out bunch of freebies in hopes of review, or even sending out big box of royalties to overseas can add significant extra cost to CD, what isn't often calculated when you compare it with some self financed C-20...?

Absolutely. Actually - for my (very limited) experience of printing medias - making tapes in factory was before Covid definitely not more expensive than a CD (and smaller run were available for a sensibly less expensive price, while with professional glass CD was not possible), while the increase of cassettes retail price started actually way before covid.

I actually always wondered of the contrary - how is possible that some very limited home dubbed noise c-20 / c-40 sometimes reach the price of 9-12 EUR? I always put a lot of value in the overall professional manufacturing process for such short runs, still I find sometimes the price quite unappropriate.


Still, I am sometimes amazed when people would talk about "getting your money back". As that tends to often mean exactly that. Literally getting your money back. It seems more like need of evaluation what is money and what it is one really needs? There are some people, very few, who does it for legit work. They may need money back for sake of sustaining their operations. Pretty much everybody else seems to have strange new school attitude. Everything is commodity, and everything is for profit and money is what is key element in all. To me it seems exactly zeitgeist of the culture now, another topic they deal in WCN podcast. It could be good topic to dive further. To talk in what ways noise is alternative culture, if it gets trapped into operation that is 100% same as mainstream culture, just less successful?

Anyways, getting your money back, is often irrelevant. Money as means of exchange can be skipped. You get back experience, you get back spark to cultivate your creative urges. You get most often life time long friendships that inspire you into new things. Even putting together special tape release.. I would think most do it, just because it is somehow rewarding. To get the task done, as unpleasant and dull as it may have been, simply getting it done is getting something back. Just this summer I was talking to one kid, who father I know, who was insisting to get paid for chopping firewood. I asked him where comes this obsession of money? Don't you realize you get paid, in building muscles, growing motoric skills, stamina, experience all together, being respected for being useful. Money should be the most irrelevant of your needs. Opportunity to man up and not ask for hand outs.

This - and not only applied to the noise scene, however I would do a substantial distinction betwenn "having the money back" in sense of "be able to guarantee the financial survival in order to continue with said operations" (which doesn´t necessarily mean doing it for work, rather wanting to achieve better goals and, in order to being able to do that, cover the financial expenses - more or less like a cultural organisation/association or a collective does), and all the other ones.

More generally, I think there´s a relatively big plethora (the new school attitude you mentioned) of people involved or interested in underground musical activities (making musical releases, organizing shows, etc..) who don´t  actually really have the strive toward the "real goal" of underground art, which in my opinion is, in the music as well as in any other artistic environment, roughly resumable in: 1) urge to express something and 2) urge to channel it into some form of shape in order to 3) create a sort of "pack" with an experience of yours as "content". I can barely imagine that, if one "does it for the higher sake of doing it", one would be so obsessed in getting the "profit" back. Of course I take money for my artistic efforts too if I have been offered some, that´s not the point, rather the spirit one does the things with.
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« Reply #307 on: October 02, 2022, 04:37:38 PM »

Also one thing that makes significant difference in price, is if you put out your own stuff vs. if you make someone else's stuff, especially compilations. Back in the day, shipping didn't necessarily need to be even issue. You'd just sent out stuff. Now, if you'd make international compilation, and mail out copies to 10 artists, I would guess shipping of free copies might cost more than pressing the release? Many times one has no idea what all goes into costs of a release.

Even in case of tape. Someone may use cheapest bulk tape, highspeed dubbed. One buys best quality tape that can be found in 2022, and dubs 1:1 speed and checks dub levels of each copy. I would gladly pay little extra for the latter, regardless of manufacturing costs. Just for the extra attention and care.


In metal scene there used to be, and sometimes still is, weird thing called "trade points". Jewelbox CD being less of value than digipak CD, or LP being less value than gatefold cover LP. Or color vinyl vs black. Or someone asking 1 trade point more because LP has poster in it. As if spending 30cents per album really increases +25% of its value. While those costs are totally irrelevant, and could be evaluated only if you compare also printruns.
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« Reply #308 on: October 03, 2022, 06:26:51 PM »

Out now - WCN Podcast #36 with STEWART SKINNER!

https://youtu.be/ajl3d8chB-s
https://youtu.be/ajl3d8chB-s
https://youtu.be/ajl3d8chB-s

There will be no public episode next week, and possibly the week after, as I take some time off to handle some important life business. There will be WCN TV content for supporters in this time though. Now is really the time to support WCN Podcast if you aren't yet!

https://www.patreon.com/whitecentipedenoise
https://www.patreon.com/whitecentipedenoise
https://www.patreon.com/whitecentipedenoise
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« Reply #309 on: October 04, 2022, 08:57:35 AM »

Really funny episode, where mr. Skinner keeps playing with Oskar all the time, just mixing all sorts of bizarre stories in middle of more serious talk. It seems there was some technical issues there, sound/pic sync and occasional disconnecting. Talking over eachother perhaps due the sound taking a bit to travel across the planet? But not bad. There is lot of talk there.

I was slightly puzzled about the discussion how we should get over "texture" in noise and get into something else. And then even more confused when Incapacitants and such were examples of non-textured noise. what?!? For me it feels like Incapacitants is just about all texture. No "rhythm", no composition, no edits, no... well you know the drill. But turns out, it gets explained later on what is meant by texture. In this case, it's "post The Rita noise". Walls of uniform texture. Tape side filled with single minded rumble. In that sense, yeah, Incapacitants actually has the human texture makers, who actively are knitting it together, but also ripping and shredding. So yeah. It was clarified.

But in other hand, I don't know is it american thing again, since when thinking European noise, is there much of texture noise there? Or is it more the internet problem? I think its been discussed in WCN podcast before, that online, you got everybody doing meme HNW. Probably no shortage of crackle studies and textures. When you look at the physical noise world, it feels like suddenly there is this guillotine of relevancy in place. "Artists" thinking, HNW meme may be funny, but not that funny that I'd be dubbing 50 tapes and mailing them out. And suddenly there is vastly more healthy and more creative level of noise, when material just has to be worth of time and money you need to spend. It's been almost inhumanly good noise tape year for 2022, and if anyone is going to be preparing "best of 2022" lists, I would assume the difficulty will not be can one find enough titles for top-5, but how to hell pick top 5 when even latest batch of one label may be have worthy of top-5!

Cheers for Industrial Recollections comment!
Occasionally people have said CD's are cheap, when they are almost just the original design and original graphic. With Govt Alpha, Monde Bruits, Black Leather Jesus etc stuff coming in near future, it felt like there just can not be any revisionism. What a desecration would be to change drastically cover envisioned by Akifumi Nakajima? Or coming up with some new front covers unrelated to originals? Change typography into something totally unrelated? Some would prefer new typesetting not scan of original tape, but I see releases as document of existing tape. Not remake. Ideally.  Black Leather Jesus CD, that it going to be sound you hear when you listen tape. Not remaster, not tweaked and boosted. Just the dirt it was. Cover format is digipak, but tape art I had, fit CD diameters perfectly. 


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« Reply #310 on: October 04, 2022, 12:52:30 PM »

Lovely episode! A joker, a smart guy and very restless - that's him. I can't speak for him 100%, but he is an artist that likes to do harsh noise in his own way, without having to partake in "the harsh noise community." He mentions Thomas DeAngelo (Crisis of Taste), Allen Mozek (Vitrine) and Jim Strong, and it's really from those circles he comes rather than the harsh noise scene - more experimental noise rather than NOISE noise, so to speak. That background naturally colors his way of doing harsh sounds, and what he seeks and takes to heart in his own listening.
He's fun and very inspiring yet demanding to work with - always 100 ideas running, out of which one may reach the finish line as an actual fully realized project/release, but that one thing is usually excellent in the end.
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« Reply #311 on: October 04, 2022, 01:39:54 PM »

One thing that was talked in couple episodes is that should you be pestering guy who has "retired" and try to lure him to... reissue? Interview? New stuff? Some opinions has been that you should just leave them alone. That's what was decided with for example S*Core. He did volunteer for interview, but for re-issuing stuff, it was firm no thanks as that creative vibe was past. Unfortunate, but got to respect that.

BUT, then we can see things like basically retired guys do make comeback. I believe RRR/Emil Beaulieau was pretty much -done-, long long time ago. Then that new wave of USA noise brought the new energy, suddenly massive touring, all sort of things and label was again back in business with massive energy.

Or story of Mortiis. Roger of CMI kept asking him year after year, please please play old Mortiis set for CMI fest, and not that goth rock stuff. Mortiis firmly says no thanks, until after multiple more requests and a bit more cash on the deal, and the rock line-up scattering around.. and suddenly, next time Roger asks, he says yes. And that lead him into playing ton of shows, creating all sorts of non goth rock recordings and so on. It was all matter of label boss making sure artist knows doors are open here, when you are in state of mind that you want to come.

I have had bunch of guys say firm no to making release or re-issue, only to later on contact me that they'd like to do something or offer exact release formerly considered not to be reissued.

I would think there is easy to see difference, that you should not be harassing old guys who just want to be left alone, but that is different thing than thinking that one badly formulated email or social media message, getting "no" in chaos of shitty work day, might not be THE final no. Just that if artists thought he has to go through horrible ordeal of digging through hours and hours of old releases, confusing discussions and end up with box of unsellable deadstock from teenage years.. so label with better offer that doesn't involve THAT, may get yes in some situation. Especially if life situation changed meanwhile.


 
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« Reply #312 on: October 05, 2022, 04:29:48 AM »

Oskar, the idea of listing tops / recommendations in the description of the video is very good and would be very useful. Especialy for us with poor understanding of english, when unfamiliar / not well known artists are mentioned even a Discogs search doesnt help. Hans Krisen ? Smegma's guy project ? Mr. Skinner give that list please.
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« Reply #313 on: October 06, 2022, 03:47:42 PM »

I was slightly puzzled about the discussion how we should get over "texture" in noise and get into something else. And then even more confused when Incapacitants and such were examples of non-textured noise. what?!? For me it feels like Incapacitants is just about all texture. No "rhythm", no composition, no edits, no... well you know the drill. But turns out, it gets explained later on what is meant by texture. In this case, it's "post The Rita noise". Walls of uniform texture. Tape side filled with single minded rumble. In that sense, yeah, Incapacitants actually has the human texture makers, who actively are knitting it together, but also ripping and shredding. So yeah. It was clarified.

It was, I think, but I did not take that as referring to a particularly uniform texture, even with The Rita namecheck. I read (or heard) it more as willingly resisting the crunch-splosive textural impetus of an (supposed) "easy" tape saturation. If so, I would get that. Would more than get that, even if I'm a quintessential sucker for the most textured textural texture this side of crrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrunch central. There's a lot more I could say on this but will refrain for the moment except to say, goddamn, just loved the A.S.M. love.
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« Reply #314 on: October 09, 2022, 01:26:07 AM »

Oskar, the idea of listing tops / recommendations in the description of the video is very good and would be very useful. Especialy for us with poor understanding of english, when unfamiliar / not well known artists are mentioned even a Discogs search doesnt help. Hans Krisen ? Smegma's guy project ? Mr. Skinner give that list please.

Without having watched but looking at your spelling I’m guessing

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zPMvEEb5ifM Hans Krusi, came out maybe 15 years ago, weirdo home tape stuff…maybe just recorded and re-recorded, some playing buckets along to songs on the radio and bird songs and church bells melting completely into each other. Maybe my favorite LP ever, allegedly more material of his exist but has yet to see the light of day.

Dude from Smegma is Ju Suk Reet Meate, there’s some solo LP/CD and he also does a project called Tenses. Solo material is pretty much smegma style musique concrete. https://www.discogs.com/artist/555739-Ju-Suk-Reet-Meate
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