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Author Topic: Gatekeepers act as if they still matter  (Read 1715 times)
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Thermophile
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« on: October 26, 2020, 11:54:39 PM »

Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.




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W.K.
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« Reply #1 on: October 27, 2020, 01:05:56 AM »

What are you talking about?
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« Reply #2 on: October 27, 2020, 01:14:56 AM »

i think that people are way too quick to release anything/everything. lazy upload to bandcamp & wait for glory to roll in. i prefer people who know what they are talking about putting great effort into helping others gain insight via zines & reviews. wouldnt call them gate keepers more taste makers maybe?
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slagfrenzy tapes
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« Reply #3 on: October 27, 2020, 05:52:22 AM »

Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

Above is Thermophile's quote, my reply below. Excuse tha luddite

It really depends on which people/reviewers you send it to.
I imagine you subscribe/buy the zines/online outlets, and are willing to admit that your labels output may not be what they like (would love to find a review outlet that accepts all and will run you down with no mercy, because that's what you wanted them to do (best review in my mind for a live release, ("I can't believe the audience were so stoned they didn't kill these fuckers when they were in the open") which I read in a zine) & understood that the copy you sent you could have sold).

Yes does matter. I still buy zines, I still read people's reviews of material online and purchase based on that.

Its a chance you take as the fella that stumped cash to make that release.

I hope this helps.




« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 05:54:36 AM by slagfrenzy tapes » Logged

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« Reply #4 on: October 27, 2020, 06:53:42 AM »

i think that people are way too quick to release anything/everything. lazy upload to bandcamp & wait for glory to roll in. i prefer people who know what they are talking about putting great effort into helping others gain insight via zines & reviews. wouldnt call them gate keepers more taste makers maybe?
[/quote

Yes, this also.
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JLIAT
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« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2020, 11:02:52 AM »

Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

I think this is a really interesting but extremely complex question. (I preface ALL what follows with IMO).

For want of a better description we live in a culture which is, or attempts to be 'dynamic'. And with this culture there appears  two opposing drives. The need to be an individual, to matter, and the tendency to be (want to be?) identified as part of a group. This is typical it seems of an industrial / capitalist system. There are other cultures where this doesn't happen, where there exists a steady state and maybe we will enter into such at some time. This would represent the 'bygone era' idea. Though I think maybe not yet. The various shades of Metal. PE and Noise, HN HNW represent 'nodes'  (as do identity to even more specific 'artists') to which individuals – as above – can identify. Central to the post-modern schizophrenia is the identity/individual paradox. Here – in SI “"difficult" music” creates, or is used as these 'nodes'. Others include such things as the Hipster phenomena,  XR, and notably LBGT, which shows this process is not static, as it's now morphed into LGBTQ+ .

So the scare quotes around  'artists', if we say take “Dominick Fernow is an American experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist”  as an example. Recognised here as such by some maybe, but generally I have doubts. Any more than Masami Akita is or Sam McKinlay. They are significant figures in a fairly small genre.  From a 'High Art' perspective they are (it could be contentiously argued) no more significant than someone like Taylor Swift (or whoever now is located within that genre). The terms ' experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist'  were borrowed to elevate a musician to a higher status.

For want of -TLDR the Bill Drummond case  and the stuckists are evidence enough. Drummond made millions with the pop group KLF but wanted High Art Status, which he sort in the K foundation, challenging the High Art scene, which culminated in his burning a million pounds. He is still attempting though to break into the High Art world. “Stuckism is an international art movement founded in 1999 by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting as opposed to conceptual art. “
Well Childish was/is the dumped partner of Tracey Emin who made it big with the YBAs back in the 90s. He also formed a band using antique guitars and amps and even tried his hand at gardening.  

So what of the original question, gatekeepers are needed, they still exist in High Art, they function to create these 'genres' by exclusion, inclusion, but also  represent something to react against. i.e. Bennett thinks noise just a coffee table fashion.

Conclusion.

So while there is a thing called 'Art' in which concerns are internal to that, there is the other 'popular art' forms giving individual identities. And Gate keeping provides both negative and positive constraints on these activities.  

'Popular' in that the music is 'liked' but also used as a means of identity. As for 'difficult', well again High Art has been there n.b. Warhol's Empire, Duchamp & Cage... etc.

P.S.

 “there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.”  

Well maybe, but the internet is really only yet another means of mass communication, like printing, books, newspapers, the railways, motor cars,  air travel, photography / film, sound recording, radio and TV. More a proliferation of ever changing gates, which might result in a (ever faster) circular rather than 'progressive' movement.
 
And all these made huge impacts on society, obviously including music. And i'd say printing was probably the biggest to date, ended over a millennia of fairly static culture?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2020, 11:13:05 AM by JLIAT » Logged
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« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2020, 11:42:13 AM »

I think zines, well regarded reviewers, and labels are more important than ever, now that the world is so saturated with available music. There's a lot out there and especially labels in my view serve an important function as curators, more than anything. Speaking for myself, I don't have time to check out everything, so it's very nice to be able to follow a few select labels that I know have an ear for quality. Gatekeepers? Maybe, but not all music is equal.
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« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2020, 02:19:31 PM »

Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

I think this is a really interesting but extremely complex question. (I preface ALL what follows with IMO).

For want of a better description we live in a culture which is, or attempts to be 'dynamic'. And with this culture there appears  two opposing drives. The need to be an individual, to matter, and the tendency to be (want to be?) identified as part of a group. This is typical it seems of an industrial / capitalist system. There are other cultures where this doesn't happen, where there exists a steady state and maybe we will enter into such at some time. This would represent the 'bygone era' idea. Though I think maybe not yet. The various shades of Metal. PE and Noise, HN HNW represent 'nodes'  (as do identity to even more specific 'artists') to which individuals – as above – can identify. Central to the post-modern schizophrenia is the identity/individual paradox. Here – in SI “"difficult" music” creates, or is used as these 'nodes'. Others include such things as the Hipster phenomena,  XR, and notably LBGT, which shows this process is not static, as it's now morphed into LGBTQ+ .

So the scare quotes around  'artists', if we say take “Dominick Fernow is an American experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist”  as an example. Recognised here as such by some maybe, but generally I have doubts. Any more than Masami Akita is or Sam McKinlay. They are significant figures in a fairly small genre.  From a 'High Art' perspective they are (it could be contentiously argued) no more significant than someone like Taylor Swift (or whoever now is located within that genre). The terms ' experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist'  were borrowed to elevate a musician to a higher status.

For want of -TLDR the Bill Drummond case  and the stuckists are evidence enough. Drummond made millions with the pop group KLF but wanted High Art Status, which he sort in the K foundation, challenging the High Art scene, which culminated in his burning a million pounds. He is still attempting though to break into the High Art world. “Stuckism is an international art movement founded in 1999 by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting as opposed to conceptual art. “
Well Childish was/is the dumped partner of Tracey Emin who made it big with the YBAs back in the 90s. He also formed a band using antique guitars and amps and even tried his hand at gardening.  

So what of the original question, gatekeepers are needed, they still exist in High Art, they function to create these 'genres' by exclusion, inclusion, but also  represent something to react against. i.e. Bennett thinks noise just a coffee table fashion.

Conclusion.

So while there is a thing called 'Art' in which concerns are internal to that, there is the other 'popular art' forms giving individual identities. And Gate keeping provides both negative and positive constraints on these activities.  

'Popular' in that the music is 'liked' but also used as a means of identity. As for 'difficult', well again High Art has been there n.b. Warhol's Empire, Duchamp & Cage... etc.

P.S.

 “there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.”  

Well maybe, but the internet is really only yet another means of mass communication, like printing, books, newspapers, the railways, motor cars,  air travel, photography / film, sound recording, radio and TV. More a proliferation of ever changing gates, which might result in a (ever faster) circular rather than 'progressive' movement.
 
And all these made huge impacts on society, obviously including music. And i'd say printing was probably the biggest to date, ended over a millennia of fairly static culture?

[/quote
Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

I think this is a really interesting but extremely complex question. (I preface ALL what follows with IMO).

For want of a better description we live in a culture which is, or attempts to be 'dynamic'. And with this culture there appears  two opposing drives. The need to be an individual, to matter, and the tendency to be (want to be?) identified as part of a group. This is typical it seems of an industrial / capitalist system. There are other cultures where this doesn't happen, where there exists a steady state and maybe we will enter into such at some time. This would represent the 'bygone era' idea. Though I think maybe not yet. The various shades of Metal. PE and Noise, HN HNW represent 'nodes'  (as do identity to even more specific 'artists') to which individuals – as above – can identify. Central to the post-modern schizophrenia is the identity/individual paradox. Here – in SI “"difficult" music” creates, or is used as these 'nodes'. Others include such things as the Hipster phenomena,  XR, and notably LBGT, which shows this process is not static, as it's now morphed into LGBTQ+ .

So the scare quotes around  'artists', if we say take “Dominick Fernow is an American experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist”  as an example. Recognised here as such by some maybe, but generally I have doubts. Any more than Masami Akita is or Sam McKinlay. They are significant figures in a fairly small genre.  From a 'High Art' perspective they are (it could be contentiously argued) no more significant than someone like Taylor Swift (or whoever now is located within that genre). The terms ' experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist'  were borrowed to elevate a musician to a higher status.

For want of -TLDR the Bill Drummond case  and the stuckists are evidence enough. Drummond made millions with the pop group KLF but wanted High Art Status, which he sort in the K foundation, challenging the High Art scene, which culminated in his burning a million pounds. He is still attempting though to break into the High Art world. “Stuckism is an international art movement founded in 1999 by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting as opposed to conceptual art. “
Well Childish was/is the dumped partner of Tracey Emin who made it big with the YBAs back in the 90s. He also formed a band using antique guitars and amps and even tried his hand at gardening. 

So what of the original question, gatekeepers are needed, they still exist in High Art, they function to create these 'genres' by exclusion, inclusion, but also  represent something to react against. i.e. Bennett thinks noise just a coffee table fashion.

Conclusion.

So while there is a thing called 'Art' in which concerns are internal to that, there is the other 'popular art' forms giving individual identities. And Gate keeping provides both negative and positive constraints on these activities. 

'Popular' in that the music is 'liked' but also used as a means of identity. As for 'difficult', well again High Art has been there n.b. Warhol's Empire, Duchamp & Cage... etc.

P.S.

 “there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.” 

Well maybe, but the internet is really only yet another means of mass communication, like printing, books, newspapers, the railways, motor cars,  air travel, photography / film, sound recording, radio and TV. More a proliferation of ever changing gates, which might result in a (ever faster) circular rather than 'progressive' movement.
 
And all these made huge impacts on society, obviously including music. And i'd say printing was probably the biggest to date, ended over a millennia of fairly static culture?


Yes we do live within an "age". I shit you not to deny this.

But having read  and understood the qu
Does sending a copy of your release to be reviewed by magazines/online magazines who deal with "difficult" music matter anymore?

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

I think this is a really interesting but extremely complex question. (I preface ALL what follows with IMO).

For want of a better description we live in a culture which is, or attempts to be 'dynamic'. And with this culture there appears  two opposing drives. The need to be an individual, to matter, and the tendency to be (want to be?) identified as part of a group. This is typical it seems of an industrial / capitalist system. There are other cultures where this doesn't happen, where there exists a steady state and maybe we will enter into such at some time. This would represent the 'bygone era' idea. Though I think maybe not yet. The various shades of Metal. PE and Noise, HN HNW represent 'nodes'  (as do identity to even more specific 'artists') to which individuals – as above – can identify. Central to the post-modern schizophrenia is the identity/individual paradox. Here – in SI “"difficult" music” creates, or is used as these 'nodes'. Others include such things as the Hipster phenomena,  XR, and notably LBGT, which shows this process is not static, as it's now morphed into LGBTQ+ .

So the scare quotes around  'artists', if we say take “Dominick Fernow is an American experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist”  as an example. Recognised here as such by some maybe, but generally I have doubts. Any more than Masami Akita is or Sam McKinlay. They are significant figures in a fairly small genre.  From a 'High Art' perspective they are (it could be contentiously argued) no more significant than someone like Taylor Swift (or whoever now is located within that genre). The terms ' experimental musician, poet and multimedia artist'  were borrowed to elevate a musician to a higher status.

For want of -TLDR the Bill Drummond case  and the stuckists are evidence enough. Drummond made millions with the pop group KLF but wanted High Art Status, which he sort in the K foundation, challenging the High Art scene, which culminated in his burning a million pounds. He is still attempting though to break into the High Art world. “Stuckism is an international art movement founded in 1999 by Billy Childish and Charles Thomson to promote figurative painting as opposed to conceptual art. “
Well Childish was/is the dumped partner of Tracey Emin who made it big with the YBAs back in the 90s. He also formed a band using antique guitars and amps and even tried his hand at gardening. 

So what of the original question, gatekeepers are needed, they still exist in High Art, they function to create these 'genres' by exclusion, inclusion, but also  represent something to react against. i.e. Bennett thinks noise just a coffee table fashion.

Conclusion.

So while there is a thing called 'Art' in which concerns are internal to that, there is the other 'popular art' forms giving individual identities. And Gate keeping provides both negative and positive constraints on these activities. 

'Popular' in that the music is 'liked' but also used as a means of identity. As for 'difficult', well again High Art has been there n.b. Warhol's Empire, Duchamp & Cage... etc.

P.S.

 “there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.” 

Well maybe, but the internet is really only yet another means of mass communication, like printing, books, newspapers, the railways, motor cars,  air travel, photography / film, sound recording, radio and TV. More a proliferation of ever changing gates, which might result in a (ever faster) circular rather than 'progressive' movement.
 
And all these made huge impacts on society, obviously including music. And i'd say printing was probably the biggest to date, ended over a millennia of fairly static culture?


I do believe that this topic regards the value of sending paid for copies of a release to a person for their opinion.
I read & understood your response, but feel you failed you address the question asked..
I got a lot from you said besides that.
Thanks
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slagfrenzy tapes
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« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2020, 02:20:40 PM »

Edited

I'm still a luddite.. Sigh..
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JLIAT
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« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2020, 03:48:45 PM »

Still a luddite.. Sigh..

Who is this addressed to? Plus you seem to have a problem with quotes?  is "I do believe that this topic regards the value of sending paid for copies of a release to a person for their opinion.
I read & understood your response, but feel you failed you address the question asked..
I got a lot from you said besides that.
Thanks"

You.

The question asked was answered, "Yes".
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FreakAnimalFinland
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« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2020, 06:01:32 PM »

Usually when I hear someone talk about ”gatekeepers”, it reeks to me of somehow bitter losers. I have never seen label or magazine editor or distributor, gig organizers etc etc as ”gatekeepers” - meaning the guy that prevents one from success that otherwise would be there. Instead of being gatekeepers, most of the people tend to be creators and cultivators. They have their own tastes and sometimes other reasons (including even just mere friendships that determine who they talk about). It would be foolish to expect that they’ll give positive reviews to everybody or invite everybody to play in festival. To see such things as ”gatekeeping”, makes me just wonder... Gate to... where?

Genre is basically open to anyone, anywhere, to do almost anything. Most of the people that may be called gatekeepers, probably spent unhealthy amount of time on thing as ”reviewing noise”. I personally would hope there would be more people to write reviews. I feel that we have zero gatekeepers, but also almost zero places to send album for review?
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« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2020, 11:41:34 PM »

...

I think gatekeepers still in delusional trip (remnant of a bygone era) because there are no more gates to keep in the internet era.

Okay, but that doesn’t mean that they are obligated to review your release, or review it positively.

And yes, the guy who runs the zine does still guard a gate — the gate to his own little domain, the zine. And if you say that the particular gate is meaningless and nobody cares, well then why did you send him anything in the first place?
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« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2020, 12:36:10 AM »

Earlier before the internet there was a few people who wrote for zines and magazines that i over the years i  learned to trust the taste of, some of them i knew i would like it if they hated it. And some had quite similar taste as me, but anyway, after some years it was so good having these to find out what few albums could be ordered not to a complete waste.

Today it is a complete opposite maybe, but it still feels a bit like the same to me. There is so much music out there and no time to listen to it all on the net before ordering. Checking reviews/getting recommendations from some select people who really dig deep if different genres is great. Without these "gatekeepers" i doubt we would have zines, forums, underground labels and concerts.
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« Reply #13 on: October 30, 2020, 10:02:13 PM »

I love fanzines with a good review section. Often the first thing i read.
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« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2020, 12:24:58 PM »

To clarify by gatekeepers of a bygone era I meant those who controlled means of distribution. Record labels, magazines, tv, radio, venue managers.
There was no other way for you to expose your artefact to the world. Everything had to be previously filtered by people in the above categories.
Of course this is not entirely negative if people with great taste happen to do the filtering process but that is not always the case. I remember William Bennett saying distributors in the 80's throwing copies of Whitehouse records to his face.

As JLIAT said above the issue is complex and don't want to make this a long drawn philosophical argument if gatekeepers should exist or not.

Also to respond to FreakAnimalFinland, . You would be equally (if not more) delusional to have such expectations from (self-perceived)gatekeepers by believing they hold the key to your "success".
Although barriers set by old gatekeepers are removed in the internet era, paradoxically the presumed audience (always an uncertain variable) for such type of music is even further away from reach due to dilution of information in the vast ocean of global internet chaos, the overload of releases and the post-modern melting away of particularities. So maybe you are right that for this type of music is better to have dedicated places for reviews and where the interested people are collected.
 



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