The Rift Between PE and HN

Started by HONOR_IS_KING!, July 16, 2020, 02:34:59 AM

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Hatefukk

I think you misunderstood my statement.  I meant everyone should like what they like and that's it as in they should like whatever it is that pleases them and not be concerned about supposed rifts among the fans etc.  Not that you shouldn't listen to new things and only stick to what you already like.  I do understand how you could have came to that conclusion but I felt the need to clarify.

Hatefukk

Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 23, 2020, 12:13:09 AM
Comes with age.  Comes with curiosity if you're the curious type.  Boiling it down to platitudes and frustrated oversimplifications reeks of youth.  We've all been there, and some remain there.

Exactly this.  When I was younger I was indeed one of those individuals who wouldn't listen to certain things because it wasn't extreme enough.  As I age I find myself less and less concerned with sticking to a specific style and often times enjoy just randomly listening to things from genres I wouldn't normally find myself gravitating towards. 

PedestrianOrgans

To me HN and PE are closely related, but way more different than people make them out to be. Neither is innately superior in any way, and judging them against each other is just starting shit to be agitating.

I have a project for HN and one for PE, and I love both but kinda go through phases where I'm more dedicated to one or the other.

Zeno Marx

Quote from: holy ghost on July 23, 2020, 01:41:34 AM
Quote from: Zeno Marx on July 23, 2020, 12:13:09 AM
Comes with age.  Comes with curiosity if you're the curious type.  Boiling it down to platitudes and frustrated oversimplifications reeks of youth.  We've all been there, and some remain there.

I have some friends who think being into the same shit they were into twenty years ago is like a badge of honour. I can't wrap my head around that mindset but I'm sure they have a hard time talking to me about music since I'm onto another crazy thing I'm obsessed with every 12 minutes.
Do you think it relates to the team thing?  THIS IS MY TEAM.  I'LL NEVER LEAVE IT.  People find pride in the strangest of places and things.  To feel two things at once, especially if conflicting, is this baaaaddddd thing.  Not allowed.  Or maybe it comes from safety and security in the familiar.  That's a common subconscious goal for habitual types.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

JLIAT

In a sentence, for an artform like music to develop rifts are inevitable. 


There is 'style' and 'taste',  but also 'genre' / 'movements' in 'Art'.  One's tastes can be general, like pop, death metal and The Beatles. Liking them all. However if one is involved in an artistic 'movement' this is not the case, there is more to it. I could say IMO, but I've been watching a few videos, two of Bennett interviews, and he makes this clear distinction. He sees Power Electronics, his term, as superior to Rock and Roll, a category in which he places Industrial, and superior to Noise, noise he says is a "Coffee table genre you don't really play". You pose with it...  There is the rift, in art there are rifts. He sees latter PE as "re inventing music from the beginning", that "even if you don't like it its good", he speaks of 'a sense of adventure'. He sort in PE not to please an audience, he talked of dragging them screaming into the woods, of confrontation and provocation. "A particular void to fill" and that Punk might once have had something but became like rock mere "plagiarism".

Now I certainly don't agree with much of this, but it shows the difference between an avant garde art, something which Bennett certainly was attempting, and entertainment. Not that the latter is less IMO any less, though maybe for others, Bennett?  Freddie Mercury wasn't IMO an avant garde artist but a consummate performer, even if one doesn't like the music. (I don't like soccer but can see Pele was a great player)

So my argument is in art there are rifts, Rothko hated Warhol (& Pop Art) and would cross the street to avoid him... to the extent of suicide at the condition of art... etc. Entertainment is different, and yes the two can merge. But for noise to develop it had to reject PE, IMO, for PE to develop it had to reject Industrial, Punk and Rock – in Bennett's opinion. Now my opinion is just that, Bennett's (and others)  was more - were responsible for a new movement in music, Power Electronics. Like it or Lump it as they say.

The idea of plagiarism he also cites as reasons why latter day PE bands don't get it.

Well if you've got this far, a personal note; I lump it. That is I see the significance of PE in the development of what is called Avant Garde / Experimental music, but don't like it. Similar with surrealism.

In a sentence, if there are no longer rifts, there is no longer development. 

Bloated Slutbag

I agree with most of what theotherjohn says, above, except to suggest that anyone posting on this forum automatically qualifies as a critic. Welcome to the team.

Riffing on JLIAT's closing remarks-

Quote"Eat shit noise music. Kill the all noise artists! We hate Whitehouse. Piss Off NWW. Asshole C93. Suck PTV. Fuck Coil. We love disco sound."
- Ai Yamatsuka / Hanatarashi

"I hate Bordoms!
Fuck! John Zone!
Death! All avantgarde Artists!
I am king of Noise!!
- Jojo Hiroshige / Hijokaidan

"I will be under control of The Mikawa! Anybody helps me now!!"
- T. Mikawa, per T. Sakaguchi

(okay that last one has nothing to do with anything. couldn't resist)
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Bloated Slutbag

Hey, I'm the last one in the world to impugn your efforts to widen the rift between music and noise.

While I'm here-

QuoteKEEP INDUSTRIAL OUT OF HARSH NOISE
- Prof McKinlay

Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Zeno Marx

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 23, 2020, 12:54:33 PM
Perhaps, but I'd like to think that noise is a world apart from music by virtue of its random, ill-planned/unwanted nature (instead of nurture), and thus being a critic is preposturous. We're not critics, we're critters.
I can never remember the name of this zine.  Minotaur (or Minotaurus) #2.  Goddamn it!  Does anyone know that zine?  There was a short article about what they called "accidenz".  I liked that, and it stuck out.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

FreakAnimalFinland

Was it zine with Blood Axis piece before project had published anything?
Also... merzbow I think?
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

Zeno Marx

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 23, 2020, 08:54:18 PM
Was it zine with Blood Axis piece before project had published anything?
Also... merzbow I think?
Yes, I think so.  Merzbow, Masonna, Left Hand Right Hand, Blood Axis.  Grey textured cardstock cover with burgundy and black ink.  I think all that is accurate.  I've looked on Books Discogs and googled with no results.
"the overindulgent machines were their children"
I only buy vinyl, d00ds.

FreakAnimalFinland

E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
MAGAZINE: http://www.special-interests.net
LABEL / DISTRIBUTION: FREAK ANIMAL http://www.nhfastore.net

Cranial Blast

#56
Quote from: WCN on July 16, 2020, 12:50:21 PMInteresting topic- I have no access to a computer for a while but feel compelled to put my 2 cents in, even if it means typing on my phone, so probably will be scattered and incomplete.

In short: I see noise in its pure sense as an empty emotional vessel. That the power and chaos of this type of sound allows to unlock deeper meaning or illumination through the introspective experience of the listener. The sound in itself is actually "superficial" in that it's free of content or meaning. There may be some inherent erotic qualities to it I think, but that may also be subjective experience.

"Power Electronics" is actually quite far off from noise in it's function for me I've come to realize (over the years). PE is loaded with specific information, especially when there is a human voice delivering lyrics. The presence of this is alone changes the experience dramatically from listening to pure noise. The "sounds" thrmselves are also often very closely related to traditional western music (Especially when we talk about "industrial") More 4/4 rhythmic patters, calculated 4 minute song structures, melodic elements, and the predictable vocal cadence. Sure, it may be noisy and chaotic, but it's basically deconstructed music. This is of course not a devaluation of PE, it just is a different type of music with a different type of effect.

As for criticism of the "content" of PE, that's a whole different beast. I'm sure I'm not going to cover all my ground here, but my attraction to PE and the "darker side" of noise as Mikko has put it, is that in its best cases, it gives honest language to evil and power - something which is rarely done in art. The thing is, I find that it often stops there, and the argument that it's "dealing with" certain topics to be an overstatement for most PE artists. Rather in most cases it is simply exploiting them. This is certainly OK and can be fascinating and, depending on what kind of person you are and what your values are, continuously so. But for others, the amount of time needed to wallow in this specific  pool is limited.

Coming into noise as I did being into PE and HN at the same time. I never equated this "difference" straight away between them, like I do now. I don't know how those coming into noise today feel, but at about 2015-2018 where I may have started my interest and now where you've got a somewhat straight line between the two genres that's also kind of a bit of a void or a nexus to the point where one who is getting into the genre could be influenced by both PE and HN, or both as those mix in strangely at that specific moment in time. I think back to Mania, Scatmother, ect. They almost were both like a good mix of both PE and HN at once, it influenced me a bit with my own project to be a bit of both in similar approach, before realizing any stark differences between the two genres or sounds at that time. I wonder if anyone else shares a similar sentiment in regards to the topic.

Penon

First, thanks for bumping old threads - unironically. When social media largely replaced bb forum as a format, discussions online became too short and too focused on what happened in the morning - discussing timeless topic for weeks and months and years is now much less common online.

My 2p as a beginner musician - before I started making music, I had periods of being in love with each of dark ambient, PE and HN, and today it results in many second thoughts when creating music. On one hand, each of the above has different sonic characteristics, different audiences, and different aesthetics, but at the same time, there is certainly a massive overlap (noiser dark ambient is almost death industrial, and noiser death industrial is pretty much PE, and more atonal PE is very much HN). But because audiences are different, am I better off to focus on one (PE) and discard any demos that are too atomospheric or to harsh noisey? Or keep them all together? Not that it really matters since it is more of a hobby, but there is satisfaction to be found in consistency. But that means locking yourself in one genre when you enjoy creating stuff across the spectrum.
Minimum Sentence - UK Disquieting Electronics:
Youtube - Soundcloud - Bandcamp - Instagram

tiny_tove

I'm into noise, industrial and pe and put together whatever works for me totally uncaring about who will listen it.

I must admit I met several HN young guys (mostly woke hipsters) that despise Industrial because "too rock" (even when there is no rock) and pe because of "laughable vocals" - true story, but truth is most of these people hates both because of the unsafe topics and aesthetic. Fun thing, I found edgy topics in all HN projects I have started following the subgenre many years ago, and still today The Rita, etc, deliver very morbid aesthetic and I'm happy to work with him and anybody else even if I am still rooted in industrial and I do 90% PE.

Said this, that slogan/shirts were amazing! I'm all about gate fencing and earning your credibility by actions ah ah
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