The Rift Between PE and HN

[burdizzo]

Well, I run a small power electronics/ industrial/ martial night in Dublin, and the Harsh Noise crowd in Dublin have banned me and a few others from their shows. Utterly pathetic carry-on, but it does happen. And it has to do w/ perceived outlook - the whole thing kicked off when the girlfriend of one of the HN main movers (who had always been friendly and supportive, in fact) spotted my FB profile, had a kitten, and next thing y'r man was pussy-whipped into bannings and doxxings, etc. I suppose that could be called a 'rift'? Same fella had attended our night, and even DJ-ed at it, in the past, and I had attended shows of his but, alas, no more... But, as you say, both 'factions' should appreciate something from the other.

[Eigen Bast]

@ zeno, I see you on that; when I think of a 'rift' I picture a distinct split within a genre, a breaking point where aesthetics and sonics diverge aggressively. E.g. hardcore's numerous fractures; crust, straight edge, 'beatdown', metalcore, etc etc. Productive, and destructive, but ultimately sublimating the genre into dozens of strands that ultimately evolve their own cultures. While industrial culture spans the breadth of commercial music with immense cultural cache down to the lonesome freak screaming into a fan in a suburban basement,  I think the 'underground' at this moment is still remarkably cohesive and supportive.

I absolutely agree that in spirit there are instances where HN and PE seem strangely at odds, and far be it from me to question lived experience.  My reaction is to the initial post, and having spent many years in this bunker, I do not see antagonism between PE and HN anywhere but on the web, among random individuals, and thus ultimately ephemeral so long as your identity is not tied to these platforms.

[holy ghost]

Reasonable to say that 98% this "rift" exists solely on the web. I think most PE is a joke but unless you're some sketchy incel or a fascist I'll have some basic respect for you same in real life same if you're a pop punk fan which I also think is bullshit..... I'm past the point in my life where music "defines" me and will treat people with a basic common courtesy even if they're into some bullshit I think it hella lame.

Like let's get real if you're a Merzbow fan and you meet someone into like, Whitehouse or some shit you're not gonna be super angsty you're going to be happy you met someone in real life that had similar interests.  Am I wrong? You don't have to like, meet each other's parents and shit but there's probably enough in common you can follow each other on Instagram....

[AnonMessAgeSage]

Reasonable to say that 98% this "rift" exists solely on the web. I think most PE is a joke but unless you're some sketchy incel or a fascist I'll have some basic respect for you same in real life same if you're a pop punk fan which I also think is bullshit..... I'm past the point in my life where music "defines" me and will treat people with a basic common courtesy even if they're into some bullshit I think it hella lame.

Like let's get real if you're a Merzbow fan and you meet someone into like, Whitehouse or some shit you're not gonna be super angsty you're going to be happy you met someone in real life that had similar interests.  Am I wrong? You don't have to like, meet each other's parents and shit but there's probably enough in common you can follow each other on Instagram....

What is with the pop punk stuff, and this new "slipknot mallcore Noise." I'm thoroughly confused.

I didn't really ever anticipate there would be some disconnect between fans of Power Electronics vs. Harsh Noise. And yes, it is probably overstated, but I am surprised to see this discussion.

Though, I really should not be. It is a matter of aesthetics. Merzbow or The Gerogerigerigegege vs. Bizarre Uproar or Grunt is quite the contrast.

It is quite evident that some people are not into the whole macho aesthetic of Power Electronics, and they don't have to be.

I don't understand why the aggressive macho behavior is maligned so adamantly. If somsome doesn't like it or isn't into it, then they don't have to be.

And that what it comes down: an appreciation for aesthetics vs. more animalistic matter.

Arguing about the preference between the two is really just silly.
It's not that big of a fucking deal.

[Zeno Marx]

I'm past the point in my life where music "defines" me...

In all likeliness, this is probably the thing.  It's everywhere.  You're defined by your team.  I personally feel it all stems from sports culture bleeding into everything else.  I have to remind myself that professional team sports in only 150+ years old.  We have no good clue how it fucks with our mentality and values.  I don't care if you never threw a ball and can't walk and chew gum at the same time.  Sports are that pervasive and powerful.  It affects everyone.  Politics.  Clothing brands.  Coke/Pepsi.  It's who we are.  It's a perversion of loyalty, which can give rise to cults of personality and unpredictable ramifications.  I think of Chicago Cubs fans.  The longer they were losers, the stronger their fans held onto them, and then when they finally won the world series, that identity was fully actualized.  That team thing gets real deep, and our culture is based on it now.  You're rewarded on many levels and beginning at a young age.

[FreakAnimalFinland]

Reasonable to say that 98% this "rift" exists solely on the web.

In situation where just about everything exists on web... naturally its easiest to see there.
Depends what the "rift" is considered to be.

Opening message concluded:

I've noticed in particular in more recent years. At least in America it seems that the rift between PE and Harsh Noise fans/artists is growing steadily. It usually feels like the HN folks are usually the first ones to denounce or make negative comments about PE. Just my observations over the years how rarely I hear PE artists talk poorly about HN as a genre and actually half if not more tend to be HN fans as well.

If a rift is concluded to mean "one side" denounce or make negative comments, a lot of messages in recent topics are clear display of that. To say it would merely exist in this forum is of course inaccurate, since most of the posters of that type are active in many places and certainly express this attitude elsewhere. That they also express it here, is barely spirit of forum, but those posters.

What I formerly commented:

Where does this rift manifest aside from this forum?

Labels, distros, podcasts, zines, gigs, festivals...?

Rift - would not be in this case "a serious break in friendly relations" -type of thing, but just a split / division of something what was formerly more united due consequences.

I don't think it is odd nor even necessarily bad thing. Cross over happens in magnitude it can. Most specialize based on their interests and curate label/distro/podcast/zine/gig/fest based on own tastes. Yet as soon as utterly specialized things dominate,  very often they define themselves in contrast to the other. What this same logic results in social & political level, is pretty much indication what it causes in musical genres as well. (EDIT: See also Zeno Marx post above for more similar phenomena. It was posted while typing this)

As a example, there was dialogue in Harsh Truths podcast, where Roman was wondering why industrial guy would even want to come to DIY noise shows - basically "punk shows". That anti-government, anti-state DIY environment would be exact opposite of these right wing leaning industrial guys sporting in jackboots, who should rather find their own place where can support government as much as possible. I did not spot any irony in the rant (beyond descriptions), but more the amusing result what this division/split on genres and notion of the demonic the other is causing.


I've told the story before in few places, but I think it fits well here too. About decade ago, I was asked to play first show with Nihilist Commando. I told I will do it only if there are good bands to play with, that I want to see. (Also currently I am not playing live almost at all, but if  I do, it would be exactly that. To see other good bands.) So organizer asked what could be booked to make it happen. I gave suggestions. It was mixed bill. Unborn SF playing mildly nationalist streetpunk. Not rac. Bizarre Uproar doing noise. JHV playing scum punk. Noise/core havoc from Ritual Feces and Nuclear Avalance. Plus Nihilist Commando doing noisecore. As you got basically all type of UG, the audience was utterly diverse. You got metalheads, punks, noise guys, skinheads, boneheads, arty folks, etc. Venue was central helsinki bar. You got harsh noise blasting from PA and boneheads are in pit wearing colors, so to say. So not just your regular baldies. But you also got comic artists, punks, etc. scattered all over venue. You can feel the tension, but also emerging energy. The bizarre vibes of mixed line-up, mixed crowd. There is clearly a rift between many individuals, but as a whole, energy is unlike many other events.
Of course in the end, some windows are broken, bouncer gets hit by some sort of bat, PA burns, skins get banned for making any orders from bar, etc.  Organizer comes to me after show, asking clearly annoyed that "so you got your line-up, are you happy now?!" and I concluded: YES.

Out of tons of good shows, nice meetings etc. there are other things, like memorable events. To play it safe, to not stir and mix a bit, may just result good, but somehow luke warm experiences. This also means what linear PE event may be.

What is unfortunate, is fact, that show like that simply could not happen at this day in scale or location as it did. Of course mixed shows still happen all the time in Finland, to level probably unseen in most other countries. It makes me wonder if DIY ethos and sanitization of scene is in different state here than somewhere else. I may be too biased to observe properly.

[burdizzo]

Hm, interesting, ok maybe there's a heavy social justice influx into the "noise" world (I wonder if the Martial music is setting people off - it being usually WW1 & 2 glorification music, we can pretend otherwise, but I can see how normal people would be taken aback).  Good UK regional info.

Sorry to be pedantic, but Dublin is not in the UK!!

[burdizzo]

Good man. No problem.

[Andrew McIntosh]

I personally feel it all stems from sports culture bleeding into everything else.  I have to remind myself that professional team sports in only 150+ years old.  We have no good clue how it fucks with our mentality and values.

I'd argue regional competitiveness is more intrinsic than that, and that sport would probably be the more obvious manifestation of such competitiveness in society because it's the more conducive (I think Orwell is attributed as saying sport is an equivalent of warfare). If sport was somehow extracted from society, there'd still be us-versus-them competition in other fields. I believe tribalism is a basic feature of human behaviour - religion would be your bigger and older example.

[Hatefukk]

I don't know, maybe it's because i'm such a shut in that I don't run into issues like this, or it may be due to my location as I rarely if ever run into anyone into either HNW or PE.  For me personally I actually enjoy both forms of art.  I think that people could apply generalizations to either style but they would be doing so simply to prove a point that stems from their own personal dislike of one or the other.  Are there some neo-facist PE musicians?  Yes, indeed, but there are also artists like Crawl of Time that most definitely do not fit that bill.  Are there snowflake uber-pc HNW acts?  Yes indeed, but then we also have stuff that thematically would normally feel more at home with what people would normally associate with PE.  At the end of the day everyone should just like what they like and that's it.  If you limit yourself to just one form of art you will find yourself missing out on some amazing stuff regardless of which art form you align with.  We could even apply these exact same arguments if we were to discuss different forms of Black Metal and we would end up with pretty much the same conversation that we are having now.

[Japsi]

I'd argue regional competitiveness is more intrinsic than that

Agreed, and I would suggest that this runs even deeper, and influences humanity far more than our 'civilized' society is willing to accept.

To suggest that it's anything to do with "sports culture bleeding into everything else" seems short-sighted.

Andrew's comment re. tribalism points to a more likely source of these apparent conflicts/rifts/whatever.

[JLIAT]

At the end of the day everyone should just like what they like and that's it.  If you limit yourself to just one form of art you will find yourself missing out on some amazing stuff regardless of which art form you align with. 

I have a question regarding this, if " everyone should just like what they like and that's it" how is it that someone say initially not liking Black Metal can go on to discover its actually amazing. (What is the source of this amazement, - or  say the shock of PE originally) And given " everyone should just like what they like and that's it" then there seems no extrinsic criteria. Music, and Art perhaps in that case is not like sport where clearly some sports people are objectively 'better' than others. Run faster, jump higher. That some tribes win conflicts with others. Moreover if anyone here was born 500 years ago they would not be into industrial or PE. Bennett criticizes TG and Punk for it becoming too pop / rock and roll ... McKinley sees HNW as more pure... and yet in other cultures no 'progress' or idea of progress occurs.

IOW it must be more than "everyone should just like what they like and that's it" because some external strange things, are strange, and shocking – at first.  Why isn't art, music no different to sport, where one might like a particular team but have to admit another team (on the day) was better. And how we judge 'better' isnt  just what we like and that's it.

[holy ghost]

I have a question regarding this, if " everyone should just like what they like and that's it" how is it that someone say initially not liking Black Metal can go on to discover its actually amazing. (What is the source of this amazement, - or  say the shock of PE originally)

I think it's reasonable to say people's tastes are fluid so it's always a wise idea to can the sassy forum talk on what you don't like (also, who gives a shit what you don't like? Why would anyone think anyone else would be interested? Serious question!) lest it bite you in the rear should those tastes evolve and change - 10 years ago I was just not having any of the Collins fronted Genesis and only dug up to The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway, now I'm a huge fan blasting Seconds Out in my car. Except I always skip Robbery, Assault and Battery which is hands down the worst Genesis tune ever written. 

Another example, 10 years ago I thought war metal was wicked cool, now I can't endure even a single pick slide or a militant pseudo "totalitarian" cover with barbed wire skull on it.

[Zeno Marx]

Comes with age.  Comes with curiosity if you're the curious type.  Boiling it down to platitudes and frustrated oversimplifications reeks of youth.  We've all been there, and some remain there.

[holy ghost]

Comes with age.  Comes with curiosity if you're the curious type.  Boiling it down to platitudes and frustrated oversimplifications reeks of youth.  We've all been there, and some remain there.

I have some friends who think being into the same shit they were into twenty years ago is like a badge of honour. I can't wrap my head around that mindset but I'm sure they have a hard time talking to me about music since I'm onto another crazy thing I'm obsessed with every 12 minutes.