MISSING... But what?

Started by FreakAnimalFinland, June 23, 2020, 03:00:10 PM

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Duncan

Quote from: pureterror on July 01, 2020, 07:32:03 AM
Greh still has everything saved on his hard drive. I know several people also backed up large portions of the board and I'm sure someone here could provide those files.

Any idea why he is sitting on it? I think it's been established here for a while that nobody seems to have anything.

theotherjohn

Probably due to all the hot gossip. I'm glad it's backed up though as I'm sure a university or library would find it worthwhile in years to come. There's certainly a solid book in there, but it would require some serious combing through.

A Troniks/Chondritic Sound recollections forum thread could be an entertaining read. One of the stories that I loved from it was this very troubled teenager who joined and started sharing videos of him making vocal noise screaming into his computer's microphone in his messy bedroom. RRRon sort of pulled him under his wing and gave him some encouragement (he may have even made a Recycled tape for his project?), and everyone else tried to offer him some genuine help and support too. He evidently had some serious emotional/personal problems though, and due to all the chaos in his home life, his parents in sheer desperation told him that they were going to send him off to military school - subsequently he disappeared from the forum. A few years later, he came back on the forum out of the blue to post about how joining the military was the BEST thing that could ever happen in his life. He gained discipline and earned a high rank/position (I think he ultimately got recruited into the Navy SEALs?), got to travel the world and do cool things in life that he never could have dreamed of, made lifelong friends and started a family. He shared some cool photos, thanked everyone who helped and encouraged him whilst he was still dabbling in noise, and then disappeared again. Very inspiring to read. I hope he's still keeping well wherever he is these days.

Duncan

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 01, 2020, 01:04:32 PM
Probably due to all the hot gossip.

I understand this. More than a decade has passed since the forum started and for sure it will display lots of people not at their best. Stupid internet dramas that everyone is (hopefully) bigger than now and possibly feel embarrassed by. If someone who has those files feels that way though, they should delete them rather than keep them around with no intention of making it available. The value of the forum as a resource today is greater than whatever egos stand to get hurt.

Respectfully, I think a book would be very navel gazing and totally unworkable.  I would just like to see it available in archival format online.  More than anything else I'd most like to be able to revisit it to check out all the discussion and activity surrounding things I wasn't into or aware of then but am now. Tastes change and move on a lot, it'd be incredible to be able to go back with fresh eyes and ears.

BTW John, that guy was called ACT.

ImpulsyStetoskopu

Quote from: theotherjohn on July 01, 2020, 01:04:32 PM
his parents in sheer desperation told him that they were going to send him off to military school - subsequently he disappeared from the forum.

It seems that a military school and being a profesional soldier can be motivation to avoid dreams about living in the noise (music).... I am an example who may deny such "negative motivation". I knew and loved noise/industrial music when I have studied in the military school, and I am die-hard fan of this kind of music/art by dint of being profesional soldier still. So, please, don't use such stereotypes and don't scare military young people here ;)

theotherjohn

I assumed he disappeared temporarily from the forum more as a result of not having access to a computer or the internet whilst training in the military, gaining discipline and doing missions. This was pre-smartphone days. Ultimately he really was making some bad decisions early in his life so his parents chose wisely for him and his character I think. As for how deeply invested his interests in noise/industrial were, I can't comment any further as I didn't know him beyond what few posts I can sort of recall all these years later.

I don't have a problem with the military/army and the strong values it instills in young people that sets them up for life. Certainly, it's a better decision than studying a mickey mouse course in university.

Thanks for the info, Duncan. RRRon really was monumental in helping out young noise projects on that forum, especially with the Recycled tape invite he sent out. A much missed presence online these days.

Duncan

I was listening today to 'Like A Frog In Winter' (2008, Hospital)

Here is something Fernow wrote about it from Soundohm:

I started putting this compilation together in 2004 while residing in providence. at that time the climate of noise was rather hi-fi, technological, and cold. This was the start of noise as entertainment rather than entertaining. personal communication became lost. noise became something clean. something stimulating.

in response i started putting together a list of new bands at the time that i felt represented a more psychological, minimal, dismal, and rejected feeling that to me was one of a fire place having smoldered out after a night of burning.

aside from the sound i wanted to see a return to the fetishistic and erotic attitude of noise... and a negative one at that.... again in response to what i saw as a call for positive noise.


I never took a lot of the hyperbole that came along with much prurient/hospital stuff very seriously and cannot speak to exactly what he is talking about in that era...but it's interesting to see what he thought was MISSING or changing at the time it got put together.  It tells us a lot about various thought processes from not that long ago where some iteration of this same discussion was always being had - something was always better in the past for whatever reason, changes in attitude and approach seemed shitty at the time. Hell, I remember how much complaining there was on the troniks forum about how it exemplified the ruin cast over noise by the internet and here we are now reminiscing about that website and that era. I'm sure a lot of the positive/hifi/stimulating/entertainment noise he is harping on about there would be considered classic of its time by most at this stage. Maybe there will a similar discussion happening about how noise was talked about across social media in another 10 years? 

Following this topic and doing some more digging I think its important to remember that it's still such a small subculture that it doesn't take very much to produce effects within it (that's my Bordieuian contribution to the critical theory sparked off by this thread).  Some observations recently - the forum leader says a tape is the best ever made in Finland and it sells out instantly and people start talking about it. The Star Cassette put out by WCN gets described as 'weird' and this opinion is now repeated elsewhere, over on the facebook group the Wiese/Skin Graft cd is talked about as 'album of the year' and at least 5 over people repeat this sentence. I'm not criticising this nor am I saying it's untrue - I've listened to and really enjoyed every one of those releases - but these qualities are hard to quantify and could just as easily be argued against or at least elaborated up in each case - you rarely if ever see variable opinions on this level that add to the overall sense of artists and their work. Now that noise and it's miniscule audience are represented across fewer and fewer platforms this is more so the case than ever, though I do think this problem has always existed to some extent because each person will bring their own feelings and ideas to almost any noise release.  Part of this is what has always made it such an attractive and interesting genre though.

A final note about the compilation itself, and this could just be my own nostalgia talking, but it definitely seems to represent an aspect of that approach I was discussing earlier with a bit more variation/less deliberate categorisation between artists and styles. Maybe it's each artist just following Dom's brief but it feels like a really cohesive, themed work where the value is about what each individual artist will bring rather than what stylistic camp they fall into.  And it's subtley so too.

Cementimental

#126
Quote from: Harvest on June 30, 2020, 10:01:00 PM
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
Phil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?

it was completely purged. iirc Tim downloaded a portion before it was fulled expunged but didn't even get half.

Yeah I left it downloading overnight on a work computer but it was still going by the time they took it offline :D Never really even looked at it, probably a mess to even browse at all.

OH ok it's still on my google drive so here you all go:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B60DREpMDwUXQVctWE16bWxOQTA/view?usp=sharing

it's only like 170mb uncompressed so must be the tip of the iceberg, and presumably it's in reverse chronological order so mostly forumpocalypse shitposting + goodbyes ?.

ha, about 1/3 of it seems to be just copies of the login page as the download app tried to crawl stuff you can't see without an account. {-__-}

Yeaah the official archive needs putting on archive.org in some properly browsable/searchable form for posterity

Quote from: pureterror on July 01, 2020, 07:32:03 AM
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
Wouldn't it be great if the Troniks forum were published as a big fat book, like just a text only manuscript?

This is probably the last thing on Earth that anyone needs.

At least one or two of the best threads. This worked pretty well https://www.amazon.co.uk/Im-Office-Worker-Michael-H%C3%A4ne/dp/1471627829

Bloated Slutbag

#127
Apologies for the potential derail, I still need to get caught up with a few pages of this discussion, but-

Quote from: totalblack on June 26, 2020, 08:54:17 PM
The main thing that I've noticed in the last 15+ years is the fragmentation into micro-scenes and communities that wasn't as present before.

Funny but I think every single contributor to this thread (to the point quoted, above) has expressed these exact sentiments, starting with OP on out.

And funny as I tend to feel that this fragmentation derives in part from a prior sense that what had been missing was a pure intensity of focus on what was very precisely felt to be desired (at the given time).

So swings the pendulum.

No bullshit, just the very best harsh noise and nothing but harsh noise. For me in the early 90s statements of the kind were rare and refreshing because they seemed to be going against the perceived more diverse grain. Americanoise, fuck yeah. This was never to dis the diversity but to celebrate the fact that such a focused meeting of visions could even exist.

And as for the live venues. I think there are several currently present who would remember times when they felt lucky to have even a single noise act on the bill. And that in having a diversity of acts there was certainly no special sense of sharing of ideals. Fans of the one favored act would show up for their one favored act, and, as soon as that one favored act finished the venue would empty leaving the noise twat to play to the three stragglers on, consisting, typically, of friend, significant other, and local drunk who'd happened to have wandered in- hey man, like, spare a couple bucks?

All to say that perhaps noise (et al) has if anything been a victim of its own (marketing) success, perhaps exacerbated as most have suggested by the concurrent onlining of life the universe everything. But perhaps as much to suggest that what is missing is the sense that the messaging is still necessary.

Like, fuck. Message (long since) received.

Not that that will ever stop me.
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Bloated Slutbag

Quote from: Duncan on July 01, 2020, 05:06:42 PM
Some observations recently - the forum leader says a tape is the best ever made in Finland and it sells out instantly and people start talking about it. The Star Cassette put out by WCN gets described as 'weird' and this opinion is now repeated elsewhere
[...]
And it's subtley so too.

I read and enjoyed (and value) your review of the Star tape but it's genuinely different to my (admittedly fuck'd) ear in a way that is purely to do with the sound. Subtley so but.

As far as The New Boyfriends. Compared with the previous Aprapat solo tapes, I'd say it was available for a remarkably long interval. By the time the recommendation dropped from Dear Leader, I honestly thought based on previous Aprapat experience that it were already long gone in any event.

Other than that, I'd agree that it's all pretty damn cozy and no worries there. Those rare times that it feels it is not are probably more a matter of one or another potential contributor not being inclined to enter their view on the subject.

That said, I'd love to get those original unredacted Troniks files. THE BOOKS SHOULD NOT BURN.
Someone weaker than you should beat you and brag
And take you for a drag

Duncan

Quote from: Bloated Slutbag on July 01, 2020, 06:25:21 PM
Quote from: Duncan on July 01, 2020, 05:06:42 PM
Some observations recently - the forum leader says a tape is the best ever made in Finland and it sells out instantly and people start talking about it. The Star Cassette put out by WCN gets described as 'weird' and this opinion is now repeated elsewhere
[...]
And it's subtley so too.

I read and enjoyed (and value) your review of the Star tape but it's genuinely different to my (admittedly fuck'd) ear in a way that is purely to do with the sound. Subtley so but.

As far as The New Boyfriends. Compared with the previous Aprapat solo tapes, I'd say it was available for a remarkably long interval. By the time the recommendation dropped from Dear Leader, I honestly thought based on previous Aprapat experience that it were already long gone in any event.

Hey, I'm prepared to be very wrong/lacking in deeper context regarding those examples - they're a dashed off way of saying that it simply doesn't take very many people sharing an opinion about something in this noise world of ours for the content of those opinions to stick within the wider 'community' and perhaps get applied to a project before the point of listening. Inevitable, simply because it's so small here.

Quoteone or another potential contributor not being inclined to enter their view on the subject.

Is the simple, basic nub of it. I do lament this because folks having something to say about the endless streams of content being produced in this whole subculture is what turns it into something beyond an artist just plugging away. I have long felt that noise could probably do with a whole lot more vocal fans who don't necessarily have a dog in the creative race themselves to contribute to these discussion and would perhaps build a more diverse discourse.

But yeah, no major issues with any of it - just some clunkily worded possible observations.

FreakAnimalFinland

I acknowledge what Duncan says, but I don't know is this new observation of any kind or unusual at any level? Just acknowledging how it goes. My assumption is, that this would be the same or related what has been done in in underground or culture since forever. You know, reading a zine and then being certainly somehow effected by what it said. Making choices or purchase etc.

Some take it even as almost sole purpose. Noisextra. Who mentioned their idea of getting people excited to talk about noise and their favorites. Or talked by Sienko in Noisextra interview. Someone talking about noise, the sort of story telling of noise, indeed adds something into abstract. It can be the cover, titles, or anything related, but it may be also review one read, discussion one had. None of this means that one would be forced to buy, or forced to like and agree. It is often reminder, that beyond label hyperbole and desperate attempts to move product, there is also actual listeners who have barely anything to "gain" from praising item they like.

It is observation over many years, that when one guy says something, bunch of guys will respond. They may not start topic about "best Merzbow of 2020", but if someone starteded it and wrote compliments, you can bet that there will be handful who will agree or share their opinion of something else. I absolutely can not see what would be the negative in this. I don't see it as sign of any unhealthy herd mentality either. For me, it is how underground works. Network of some sort of associates/contacts who tell others what item rules and that they should check it out. They may also tell what is pretty sucky release and should not be the one you waste your last money. Should there be more people, who confidently voice their opinion on release? Perhaps, yes. For example Noisextra has underlined this to be one of the motivations. To get people to talk about noise and favorite recordings. Give others recommendations, without it being really for their own benefit.

What I do not particularly like, is that there is a level of dishonesty to be seen - perhaps even more so in "free digital music". Lets say, there is project that uploads material online. Their friend raves how great it is and how great these guys are. You go to listen, and without single doubt can conclude that what a waste of time. Utter garbage. You could be sure that if anyone was to be asked, would they buy this LP. Actually pay and hunt for recording, they would most likely conclude: hell no. And no amount of praise would change that.

So these kind of small talk/ass kissing between the friends, seems to me annoying. It is vastly different category (I'd define that as "social scene underground") than people hearing what they appreciate, which turns out to be so good they feel they barely could live without it in shelves, hah.. (which is the more traditional noise network underground).

I recall when RRRon was totally blown out by fact that people were fighting against mp3 blogs. Requesting their stuff being removed from blogs, torrents and sites. He concluded that back in the day, it was that urge what created underground. One would hear something so brilliant, that he would not shut up. He would make dubs to people, xerox, send letters, talk to anyone who was barely willing to listen that check out THIS. Fast forward decade or couple and people were trying to limit any "non official" spreading and perhaps even dialogue about material... Being annoyed that people knew about existence of some recordings, for example. Of course there is difference between fans and rip off file sellers, but mentality is still revealing change.


How to get more people talk and interact? Is it even mandatory? I'm pretty sure it is semi-futile attempt. We live in reality, where just about anyone will join "post 10 favorite album covers, no comments" -facebook challenge, but if they would have to actually say anything, it won't happen. It seems we just have to settle that there are handful of people who have urge to write or talk about things.
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Duncan

#131
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 02, 2020, 11:00:09 AM
I acknowledge what Duncan says, but I don't know is this new observation of any kind or unusual at any level? Just acknowledging how it goes. My assumption is, that this would be the same or related what has been done in in underground or culture since forever.

Agreed, hence:

Quote from: DuncanNow that noise and it's miniscule audience are represented across fewer and fewer platforms this is more so the case than ever, though I do think this problem has always existed to some extent

I am saying that the 'problem' (which isn't even really a 'problem') is more so the case now that it seems - judging from other people's accounts of it on here - that discourse takes place predominantly in places where input always takes the same form of very fast, temporary online interactivity - emojis, clicking like buttons etc

The overall point - perhaps poorly expressed on my part - is that it takes so little to create discourse that ultimately what noise 'is' as a subculture and genre, and what may or may not be missing from it at any given time will come only at the hands of the few people who actually are doing things - creating, releasing, writing, opining etc. If that's being done mostly on a facebook group or instagram then fine, if it's a return to zines and forums then cool, if podcasts become more of a thing then it'll be that. I don't think this means more people ought to be getting involved as if to add new life. That's nice on a local level for sure, but globally there is still too much going on to check out anyway.  

At most I think it would simply be a beneficial thing for a diversity of opinion to exist in the few places there are conversations going on simply because it would be nice to feel like there is a bit more to noise fandom (hahhh) than 90% people being biased toward their friends releases (also a longstanding part of things, no new situation). I suppose this does mean more existing participants would need to speak up, and I get that not everybody cares to do so. It will be what it will be and that will be fine.

ImpulsyStetoskopu

#132
Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on July 02, 2020, 11:00:09 AM
How to get more people talk and interact? Is it even mandatory? I'm pretty sure it is semi-futile attempt. We live in reality, where just about anyone will join "post 10 favorite album covers, no comments" -facebook challenge, but if they would have to actually say anything, it won't happen. It seems we just have to settle that there are handful of people who have urge to write or talk about things.

Question would be: why talking and interaction is such important? For whom? And talking about? People want to feel identity... They like when they aren't alone....Seemingly such identity isn't bad but every collectivity/circle will bring about every idea to distortion sooner or later. Every society (even small and sub-culture) lead to frustration and confusing. I experienced several forums in the Internet/small groups in reality, each of them was counter-productive, where art/music wasn't the most important. Of corse somebody may say that it is much more better than nothing.... Maybe... For me it isn't better and I don't need such things like that. I prefer loneliness in interaction with music or art and I am sured that loneliness is much better to understand this music and this art. In the last years I discovered even that I don't need to know closer artists/composers in their interviews. Their views, their opinions, their reasons to begin with music/art are useless for me. Their art/music is only and enough form of communication/intreraction for me. I don't need their real "truth" - I would rather prefer their dreamed and unreal world of music/art. It is much more valuable than their real life. Anyway, maybe people other feel it in the same way but they aren't conscious about that... Maybe this is reason why they don't need talking and interaction with others?

Or maybe.... Once  I knew a friend who declared liking noise/industrial music but he knew only the most famous of them, mainly from harsh noise and power electronics, and mainly from US. I asked him why he doesn't want to know more, and less known, from other countries, like from Russia, Brasil, China or even from our country, from Poland? He answered that he needn't that....He needn't to know so many and unknown acts/names. I was shocked such confession. I don't accept such attitude... I don't accept situation where people are closing themselves in their small worlds of specific art/music sects where isn't important music/art only an identity.

JLIAT

Quote from: ImpulsyStetoskopu on July 02, 2020, 12:27:35 PM

Question would be: why talking and interaction is such important?

"check out the big brain on brad" - and just, if not more importantly, if brad doesn't communicate then any insights he may have will die with him. Communication may have its downside with the internet, but human progress was powered by communication, speech at first then writing, printing and so on. With each it seems radical changes to society occurred. The problem might be too much unfiltered communication creates noise. Which is kind of ironic. 

Strangecross

I think writings about noise and related culture should be appealing in the same way as a noise release, thus why it is better printed and seedy.

what year was Troniks board started? I'm not interested in wading through all that shit, but it would make a good podcast subject, *wink wink*
I certainly took the Troniks board for granted, it was there when I came into noise and I never contemplated that it was special.