MISSING... But what?

Started by FreakAnimalFinland, June 23, 2020, 03:00:10 PM

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jbalsinek

Quote from: sunandsteel on June 28, 2020, 09:03:42 PM
I agree with one of the first posts in the thread regarding the use of streaming platforms such as and especially Bandcamp. It is starting to become more common to see entire releases uploaded months ahead of any physical release and in some cases there isn't a physical release. I think such platforms can be useful when using it to host preview tracks for upcoming releases, but to the aforementioned practice seems like such a bastardization of the artistic process. I can't fathom putting months of energy into material only to lazily click "upload". The art and packaging is as much of a statement as the audio. This trend is very much indicative of high time preference.

My perspective on this is fairly subjective but platforms like Bandcamp have actually allowed me to resume listening to new noise and experimental music after a lengthy hiatus. Personally I'm much more interested in the audio content than the art and packaging, unless the art and packaging are quite special, which doesn't seem to be the case with the majority of releases. (I do have a thing for vinyl but I'd still rather have a digital album than a vinyl with boring or mundane art.)
More importantly, I've moved six times over the last decade and have basically lived out of two big suitcases for the last few years so I don't have the space to hoard physical releases, nor an interest in doing so. I appreciate that my circumstances are not common, but personally I'm happy these digital platforms are around - if I couldn't purchase music on them, I probably wouldn't be purchasing any music at all.

BlackSunAndSteel

Quote from: WCN on June 28, 2020, 09:12:44 PM
Quote from: HONOR_IS_KING! on June 28, 2020, 06:18:56 PM
Morality interests me little with this.
Well it's an inherently moral discussion, so if that's your moral position on it, then you're doing right by you and there's little to discuss. I do think you're selling yourself short by saying no one "here" is interested in your work and that your audience exists exclusively on instagram. I also think it's great to make money off of one's work, so if you've been able to make some good cash, then more power to you. Still, what you've described here is a far-cry from "domination" as an artist by any definition in my mind.
Maybe all the listeners who can't distinguish shitty dubs from decent ones moved exclusively to instagram and that's how he got so much modular gear...
Morality interests me little with this.

To say that its not real, well then my guy I don't know how to explain all that expensive modular gear I got these days.

I'd rather dominate then be moral in the shadows living by a code thats looking to be outdated.

ImpulsyStetoskopu

#107
Quote from: sunandsteel on June 28, 2020, 09:03:42 PM
I agree with one of the first posts in the thread regarding the use of streaming platforms such as and especially Bandcamp.

There isn't problem with "streaming platforms", FB and so on. It is only a tool such like other in everyday using. Problem is with human's mentality.


Quote from: sunandsteel on June 28, 2020, 09:03:42 PM
I don't really place blame on artists because this is something you have to very consciously avoid in order to maintain even a fraction of the mystique that projects enjoyed in the past.

Does lack of mystique come from technology? Technology isn't an artist, only a human.


totalblack

A few separate topics:

The increased use of social media networks in noise\industrial and society overall is certainly a problem, and as helpful as the internet has been, it's been largely corrosive. I don't disagree with a lot of the complaints and resistance against platforms like facebook and instagram being used to promote music or art. It's also nothing new, I remember seeing noise labels and artists making myspace pages as early as 2004. Even labels like true force pain electronics used tumblr as a website replacement. The same concerns and complaints should be raised towards platforms like paypal, google\gmail\chrome, mailchimp, discogs, bigcartel, soundcloud, bandcamp, apple products etc.. in regards to data-mining and fast-food style consumption practices. Whether information like "people interested in noise and industrial music" may seem useless to major corporations, the data IS being used maliciously to raise capital for facebook, and others. I don't personally have any solution on how to move forward without all these platforms, other than returning to the old system of sending cash or money orders via mail only, or only using darknet marketplaces and crypto-currency. Neither of these are practical or desirable personally, and in the end, photos of these records and tapes will end up getting posted on instagram anyway, since probably 75%+ of people creating and collecting this stuff use these platforms. There's certainly lost magic looking back to days when you would send in email orders from distro lists, or having no samples to listen to, and blindly buying or trading for batches of releases based on descriptions or faith in the label alone. The same can be said for the brick and mortar record store that supports industrial and noise, something which isn't that common anymore. A lot of these locations rely on using these platforms to appeal to a wider audience to sell records and survive. It's true that it's possible to exist without using instagram, facebook, etc. but as was mentioned earlier- it often requires some sort of existing fanbase, network or social capital to do this. I personally use all of these platforms along with mailorder newsletters, physical flyer mailouts with orders, prioritizing copies going to brick and mortar record stores, ads in magazines, widespread distro, etc., in part because I think it's important to disseminate releases to as wide and disparate an audience as possible. Most social media platforms have become significantly worse over the last few years, and watching things degrade I've often regretted the amount that I use them. In the end things aren't black and white, and as mentioned there are ways to use them without completely giving up. There is a HUGE difference though between labels who exclusively use social media as a place to exist, tapes with garbage art limited 10 selling out in minutes to an audience of thousands who certainly don't seek out or support noise from other venues, or at all asides from a like. There's also not to be named raw black metal label posting LP pre-orders 6 months in advance, listing in terms and conditions that all emails would be ignored and senders banned, updates on pre-ordered records only via instagram. This I completely don't understand.

On the subject of print magazines becoming less and less common, let me rephrase that I don't think "it is what it is", ultimately I think it's a real tragic shift. I try to get 25-50 copies of each new issue of Noise Receptor and Special Interests in, and it takes ages to move them all, despite being most popular current zines. Newer zines are increasingly rare and are either in super low runs, have price points closer to books, or only pop out every few years. There's a a few new ones that have popped up in the last years (Nefarious Activities, Untitled) and I'm interested to see how these develop. Larger journals like ALAP were fantastic, and it's really unfortunate that the second issue never materialized. There should be more print documents of active noise and industrial culture, I encourage people to take initiative in starting them. I will say that facebook group "Noise Now Playing" is a refreshing new source of discourse, frequent posting of heavy hitting titles with discussion ranging from casual to deep, a lot of knowledgeable contributors with intense collections. Special Interests is currently the most active forum for noise activities, and unfortunately I doubt that there will be another one that will pop up, since user base of forums has been fading for years. Whenever new ones pop up, something happens after some time like admin forgets to pay fees and the whole thing gets deleted, or it just fades out and becomes useless or only full of spam posts. Troniks forum was obviously a fantastic resource, and I would love for something like that to exist again.

Redbull music academy and things like this- I don't think there is anything wrong with accepting money from these sources. I have had plenty of debates with friends about it, know some people who will scream bloody murder about how evil it is, sellout, etc.. A lot of these wailers in the end are unhappy they are not successful enough to be approached for this sort of opportunity, and declining it just gives someone else the chance to take it. For people who work endlessly dedicating their lives towards music and art, it's fine to take some occasional misguided corporate payout and actually make decent money for once. Is Redbull an evil company? personally I think almost certainly. But this weird advertising campaign can't be super successful or they wouldn't have discontinued it. I feel the same way towards government grants, residencies and state sponsored music festivals. It depends on your goals, if you want to be subversive, take whatever resources or weapons you have available to you.

Decrepitude

I could mostly echo holy ghost's and W.K.'s sentiments here.

Something that I feel is different now than for example ten years ago is that since there really seems to not exist a good internet platform for reviews and not many message boards things feel a bit more consumerist with not too much written words on a lot of more underground stuff and people being vocal about being genuinely excited about music they listen to which I guess many still are. I'm curious to see the noise now playing group in regards to this.

As far as quality of music, the aforementioned New Boyfriends, Limbs Bin's Astray, the new Narcolepsia batch (especially K2 and VMS Elit) and the new Gnawed album, which to be fair I haven't heard since I'm waiting for a physical copy, have been released in a time frame of about a month with the exception of LB. That's quite many releases already for this year and I bet there's more. How many really great releases is it realistic to demand?

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: totalblack on June 30, 2020, 12:13:42 AM
Redbull music academy and things like this- I don't think there is anything wrong with accepting money from these sources. I have had plenty of debates with friends about it, know some people who will scream bloody murder about how evil it is, sellout, etc.. A lot of these wailers in the end are unhappy they are not successful enough to be approached for this sort of opportunity, and declining it just gives someone else the chance to take it. For people who work endlessly dedicating their lives towards music and art, it's fine to take some occasional misguided corporate payout and actually make decent money for once. Is Redbull an evil company? personally I think almost certainly. But this weird advertising campaign can't be super successful or they wouldn't have discontinued it. I feel the same way towards government grants, residencies and state sponsored music festivals. It depends on your goals, if you want to be subversive, take whatever resources or weapons you have available to you.

I don't understand the sellout complaints either.  If your project was consistent enough with their values for Redbull to want to support them, then I would hardly call it becoming a sellout.  If someone changes their image, style, etc (only) in order to gain such support, then you are a sellout.

Strangecross

#111
Imagine dissecting the business practices of a band like The Rolling Stones the same way people do for Bastard Noise or Hospital.

A couple things that have not been brought up, at least in this thread that I saw:

Ease of creating sound (someone maybe mentioned built-for-noise gear), mastering, editing, transferring files to label, label to manufacturer, the whole damn process
maybe people are not getting as bogged down and obsessed with the noise. It is too easy to get it released, in every step of the way. So it is presented as the final product, but there was no struggle to get it there.

There is no to little gamble releasing to digital format or to close group of Instagram followers.
Maybe this is a dumb realization for me since people have been talking about quality control for years, but it should be in this thread.
of course- but I put my soul into this release, or I used analog equipment! any such claim is suspicious. still you didn't have to snail mail everything and face an invisible audience or label, or your relation to a label is shallow due to ease of operation.
I could point to a lot of examples where use of analog is not quality of format per say but perversity of time and dedication heard in that recording. Isolation as opposed to exposure and the all seeing eye of corporate interest.
yeah yeah it is all person to person basis whatever.

W.K.

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on June 28, 2020, 08:16:41 PM
All that knowledge and information that could have resulted even interesting printed zine, will disappear. Does it really matter - is of course different debate.

I guess that's true to some point, but how many one here are still reading threads from ages ago? I guess you are able to see statistics and if you are looking for specific projects it's still valuable, but most information not printed down on tangible matter gets lost in the noise of the internet - even more so on social media platforms where it's more about the new thing that is being posted than on a more hierarchical structure like a forum that also functions a bit like an archival.

Quote from: Decrepitude on June 30, 2020, 01:34:56 AM
I could mostly echo holy ghost's and W.K.'s sentiments here.

I might have been a little bit to harsh to be honest and I take a little step back because I still like the Youtube platform despite all it's shortcomings, censorship and those that are uploading music that is still for sale. Never liked the DVD format for some reason (maybe because I don't own a TV), but online video platforms are A OK for me. And in reality, you could not use an commercial e-mail provider ans set-up your own mail sever, not use social media and not even use PayPal.....but self-hosting your video's, however technically possible, is not really you want to fuck with. It's complex and expensive.

Quote from: Balor/SS1535 on June 30, 2020, 01:41:21 AM
Quote from: totalblack on June 30, 2020, 12:13:42 AM
Redbull music academy and things like this- I don't think there is anything wrong with accepting money from these sources. I have had plenty of debates with friends about it, know some people who will scream bloody murder about how evil it is, sellout, etc.. A lot of these wailers in the end are unhappy they are not successful enough to be approached for this sort of opportunity, and declining it just gives someone else the chance to take it. For people who work endlessly dedicating their lives towards music and art, it's fine to take some occasional misguided corporate payout and actually make decent money for once. Is Redbull an evil company? personally I think almost certainly. But this weird advertising campaign can't be super successful or they wouldn't have discontinued it. I feel the same way towards government grants, residencies and state sponsored music festivals. It depends on your goals, if you want to be subversive, take whatever resources or weapons you have available to you.

I don't understand the sellout complaints either.  If your project was consistent enough with their values for Redbull to want to support them, then I would hardly call it becoming a sellout.  If someone changes their image, style, etc (only) in order to gain such support, then you are a sellout.

Isn't it obvious or am I missing the sarcasm from you? I don't mind corporate investment in noise, I think it would be really funny, and Red Bull giving platform to a few noise and experimental artist is certainly a beauty to behold in it being quite strange, but also very ironic?

1) Punk and underground ethos not wanting to fuck with corporations and people making money behind their backs (or that's how one can feels feel at least). Let's be honest, most of the underground is left-wing and likes to talk about it's anti-commercial values.
2) Corporations never being part of the culture, and despite giving money to a few artist not being interested in investing in the culture ). And let's be honest, if there wasn't money here to be made, they wouldn't care (although I guess Redbull has always been taking a risk in investing in off-mainstream things like extreme sports and lifestyle. Yes it's part of their brand, but they could have been making safer investments quite easily. And I guess with Redbull there are a few guys in the marketing department that are fans of noise and are able to push their personal taste to an extend, I say power to them!). 
3) Redbull being a shitty drink causing all kinds of health problems and diseases. Also, more fat people, yay. It does bring interesting content for a new release though.

Do I think most people not liking Redbull will accept a cheque if they could play or do a talk for them? absolutely. You are gaining a possible new audience and money, hell yeah.

And in regards with Merzbow an Redbull I do think it's very strange! Him being a moralistic vegan straightedge wanting to save the planet, how does that align with the Redbull brand? Money talks over values? Willing to bat an eye for once? Are his values less important than he makes it out on his art? Not caring, or is he just being pragmatic?     

Quote from: Strangecross on June 30, 2020, 03:47:11 AM
A couple things that have not been brought up, at least in this thread that I saw:

Ease of creating sound (someone maybe mentioned built-for-noise gear), mastering, editing, transferring files to label, label to manufacturer, the whole damn process
maybe people are not getting as bogged down and obsessed with the noise. It is too easy to get it released, in every step of the way. So it is presented as the final product, but there was no struggle to get it there.

But is it? It's easier, sure. But it's still an investment in time, money and effort it's a lot easier just not to be involved in the process and only listen to noise. Netlabels, those where easy, CDr's, sure, those where easy when they became affordable and slow 4x write speeds increased, but cassette releases still take a lot of work.

But is it? Despite being it easier to work on stuff than the past (possibly, I don't know), I still work months on a release, only to be not fully happy with it and shelving it as an unfinished project on the computer or dub it cassette tape and label it as 'unfinished, work for later'. But maybe that's just me.

If I'm going too much off-topic please say so.
Straight murkin' riddim blud, absolute vile gash

JLIAT


"Let's be honest, most of the underground is left-wing and likes to talk about it's anti-commercial values."

And can i suppose justify being funded by governments and multi-national companies... for the ends justifies the means...

But 'To Dine with the Devil?'


"Red Bull GmbH (German pronunciation: [ʁɛt ˈbʊl]) is an Austrian company known for its range of energy drinks, the manufacturer owned by the British-Dutch company Unilever."

"In 2014, Unilever was criticised by Greenpeace for causing deforestation."

" In 2008, Greenpeace UK[139] criticised the company for buying palm oil from suppliers that were damaging Indonesia's rainforests"

"In 2019, Unilever was cited by BreakFreeFromPlastic as one of the top ten global plastic polluters."

"For years, Unilever purchased paper for its packaging from Asia Pulp & Paper, the third-largest paper producer in the world, which was labeled as a "forest criminal" "

"In 2001, a mercury thermometer factory operated by the Indian subsidiary of Unilever in the South Indian hilltown of Kodaikanal was shut down by state regulators after the company was caught for dumping toxic mercury wastes in a densely populated part of town. By the company's own admissions, more than 2 tonnes of mercury were discharged into Kodaikanal's environment. "


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unilever#Environmental_record

tiny_tove

#114
I read most of the thread. A few points. I agree with anything Total Black / MIkko wrote.

- Social media. I have been using them since their dawn. Myspace was an excellent replacement from expensive website, a great way to promote and discover new sounds, and dating. I joined FB because it was a job tool but I closed it as soon I saw what today is normal: general dumbness spreading background noise, stalking, etc. I lived without social media until many people stopped answering emails, so I joined the Instagram (@anticitizen) that surely helped to sell a few copies, contact the lazy bastards that are unable to use outlook properly and collect an enormous amount of visual inspiration. I'm not against social media, I just think people should get a license before using that with an IQ test. But this applies to society in general.

- "Inclusive scene", despite being a promoter of what Mikko described as "the dark side of noise", I keep talking and interaction with anybody who doesn't act like a rude prick to me. There are numberless of pro BLM who used the black square who buy and praise UNPC bands. It's not a problem, it's like me being straight edge and having a special interest in human trafficking and yet getting off with gangsta hip hop glorying drugs and pimping? Incoherence? No, just a person has many faces and different sensibilities separating what is my vision of the world and purchase of creative artifacts. As long you don't behave like an infamous underground searchlight wanna-be like WMTN or Grufties gegen rechts attacking weird looking people at random (especially people who are NOT REALLY POLITICAL), fine by me. But I will not be very kind with people who writes me in private about specific topics and bands and then shun these and myself and place like to articles written about people above. I still think a GO/Sudden infant gig is ideally possible, but not sure SI fans would feel comfortable.

- Funding and sponsorship. Let the cash flow in, fuck pauperism I'd rather play with somebody who offer me full "bed and blow job" service and the possibility to interact with a wider group of people, experience new value and have a decent sound, than to be concerned of getting hepatitis for unavailability of a decent restroom. Corporations own the car you drive, the computer you use and even the production platforms of vinyl  and cd raw sources, so unless we start making vinyl from thin air we are part of it. The definition of sell-out to me is somebody who sells his work to the market changing or toning down their attitude and message to make the market happy. I don't see any of us doing that even in the event somebody collaborates with artier environments.

- DIY still counts to me because I enjoy a lot doing my stuff in my limited time left for music. But it's a way of acting not a value itself. No risk to evolve from this stage because my sounds and visual are not of public interest and so are most of us. There have been exceptions but I totally have respect for them.

- Fanzines - The death of printed paper is really sad to me. I keep buying zines, although I stopped reading reviews unless I know the reviewer taste. I'd love to do mine, but I'd get bored immediately and hate myself.

- NETWORK - This is what still makes me excited about all this. Although I no longer trading distro stuff, is the best way to feel the human aspect in this that makes me know I have friends to count on and do stuff with. I no longer go to gig to my tinnitus, but having people visiting or getting in touch from around the world keeps me want to do stuff also for the others.
CALIGULA031 - WERTHAM - FORESTA DI FERRO
instagram: @ANTICITIZEN
http://elettronicaradicale.bandcamp.com
telegram for updated list: https://t.me/+03nSMe2c6AFmMTk0

WCN

My problem with social media is more about humanity at large, as I see it as total poison to the collective and individual psyche, aside from the data mining issue. (The data mining issue is also HUGE, but like it has been mentioned by others here, this is happening with nearly everything we touch, so I don't have the illusion that not using instagram or whatever for noise makes any difference in this regard). It's about the behavior patterns it trains and reinforces, and I wish more people rejected it, especially in the "underground/noise/industrial/freethinking/artist" whatever community, but I've ranted enough about that. I suspect the majority who use these things feel this too to some degree, so maybe the pendulum will swing back in the near future.

It's really all about the networking and exchanging with dedicated fanatical people, and that's going pretty well lately, regardless of platform. I just love a good email. I admit the "Noise Now Playing" private FB group has been fun since I discovered it a couple months ago, kind of like the Playlist thread here but with pictures and more activity. More printed media would be great - makes me want to have a crack at something. Maybe just interviews with artists that I've worked with through WCN over the years. Wouldn't it be great if the Troniks forum were published as a big fat book, like just a text only manuscript? I'm often end up thinking back on something I read there and wishing I could return to it. Phil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?
Harsh Noise label and EU based distro of American Imports
https://whitecentipedenoise.com/

XXX

Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
Phil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?

it was completely purged. iirc Tim downloaded a portion before it was fulled expunged but didn't even get half.

NerveGas

Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
My problem with social media is more about humanity at large, as I see it as total poison to the collective and individual psyche, aside from the data mining issue. (The data mining issue is also HUGE, but like it has been mentioned by others here, this is happening with nearly everything we touch, so I don't have the illusion that not using instagram or whatever for noise makes any difference in this regard). It's about the behavior patterns it trains and reinforces, and I wish more people rejected it, especially in the "underground/noise/industrial/freethinking/artist" whatever community, but I've ranted enough about that. I suspect the majority who use these things feel this too to some degree, so maybe the pendulum will swing back in the near future.

Once again, I would agree. All criticisms or analysis of the role of corporations aside, social media simply seems to amplify/exploit already existing human tendencies and that's where the issue lies.
MAGNETIC IRRITATION RECORDINGS

WEBSTORE - www.magneticirritation.com
CONTACT - magneticirritation@gmail.com

totalblack

#118
Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PMWouldn't it be great if the Troniks forum were published as a big fat book, like just a text only manuscript? I'm often end up thinking back on something I read there and wishing I could return to it. Phil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?

Youth Attack did this with the Jerkbooth books, and as much as those aren't of interest to me personally, it might be possible to gain access to some of the old posts via internet time machine

edit: I tried, it's excluded from internet time machine

pureterror

Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PM
Wouldn't it be great if the Troniks forum were published as a big fat book, like just a text only manuscript?

This is probably the last thing on Earth that anyone needs.

Quote from: WCN on June 30, 2020, 09:51:21 PMPhil or Greh, if you're reading this, do these pages still exist somewhere?

Greh still has everything saved on his hard drive. I know several people also backed up large portions of the board and I'm sure someone here could provide those files.