C10 noise Why bother.

Started by slagfrenzy tapes, November 07, 2019, 11:43:14 AM

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Theodore

Quote from: Strangecross on November 07, 2019, 05:23:01 PM
which I see as similar to saying, a c10 should be 3euros, rather than __euros... because, why exactly?

Because i have no problem to buy a C20 for 7 ! Seriously, an artist, a label, anyone has the right to price and sell his work as much he wants. I have gladly bought 'overpriced' stuff when i think it worth it, will do again, and i dont ask for refund if i didnt like it haha. I dont buy bullshit just cause they are cheap. And i have C10 bought not 'cheap' i dont regret and will buy again if it's something i want. - But there is a 'market' with somehow standard prices, right ? So to ask you the same question, why most releases cost more or less the same when out, no matter if it's an established great artist or a worthless 'nobody' ? - Your releases, are all equaly good ? Demanded the same effort ? Mean the same to you ? Why 7 no matter what rather than _ EUR ? The answer is the 'market' , which is defined by fans' wallet too.

As a buyer, my opinion, my behaviour if C10 were the rule, for 7EUR, would be to prefer CD purchases then. Cause i am music consumer, that means i need quantity not only quality -who can listen only the same masterpiece again and again ? - , and i wouldnt afford paying 7EUR for 10minutes all the time. My opinion. You might tell me "Then listen through YouTube, it's free" , you may have right, then.

Who judges what is filler or not ? First we have to listen it, right ? What if your favorite artist started to release only his 'best' 10minutes instead of an album ? Would you prefer to buy a 5xC10 boxset or a CD of the same material, given the boxset has x3 the CD price ? General questions ...
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

Strangecross

I just don't think the experience of music starts you push play,  and ends when the tape comes to a halt. Market is irrelevant to the concept, in so far as price relative to specifically- a c10.
talking about cdr vs cd or LP vs tape could in some ways change the argument, but i'm just defending c10s. When done correctly, they re just as complete as a full-length.
but nothing will save us from uninspired lame noise.

Theodore

Quote from: Strangecross on November 07, 2019, 06:45:30 PM
I just don't think the experience of music starts you push play,  and ends when the tape comes to a halt. Market is irrelevant to the concept, in so far as price relative to specifically- a c10.
talking about cdr vs cd or LP vs tape could in some ways change the argument, but i'm just defending c10s. When done correctly, they re just as complete as a full-length.
but nothing will save us from uninspired lame noise.

Totally agree with you here. To explain myself better, again, i am not against C10, i wrote it in my first post here, if it is for a C10 then better do your best or do it in a concept or for a reason. - I am against them become the usual length for tapes, based on the argument "They have the best material" etc. And i am against it only for financial reasons, of mine !
"ἀθάνατοι θνητοί, θνητοὶ ἀθάνατοι, ζῶντες τὸν ἐκείνων θάνατον, τὸν δὲ ἐκείνων βίον τεθνεῶτες"

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: NaturalOrthodoxy on November 07, 2019, 12:23:53 PM
it's almost a similar argument to that guy complaining about his Rainforest Spiritual Enslavement tape punting itself as two tracks rather than a repeated program.

It's the same argument yeah.

The longer a release, the better?
If that's OP's argument and they care only about length over quality, that's a point.
I would ask then, what's your line? How high is your preferred "price per length"?

For me personally, length of material has obviously nothing to do with its quality. Some songs I might enjoy more if they were longer but artists had their reasons. Maybe achieving the sounds for longer wasn't possible during the session. Maybe they just decided "fuck you, you don't get to listen to this for longer." - both fair. Some songs get repetitive or lose energy/impact when dragged out. Good songs can be destroyed by this.

When talking about "wasting plastic" I want to remind you of the beauty of being able to re-use tape. If you don't like a release and feel like it's a waste of plastic just dub your favorite stuff on there. Also defining the line at which length it's not a waste anymore is super arbitrary. It comes down to what you personally like as C10.

Strangecross

Quote from: deutscheasphalt on November 07, 2019, 07:10:30 PM

When talking about "wasting plastic" I want to remind you of the beauty of being able to re-use tape. If you don't like a release and feel like it's a waste of plastic just dub your favorite stuff on there. Also defining the line at which length it's not a waste anymore is super arbitrary. It comes down to what you personally like as C10.

They are running out of chrome tape, afterall... not plastic casings.

MyrtleLake

#20
Haha! I'm sorry. My apologies...
I have to mention a series under SRR (both defunct, I believe) titled, "Waste of Plastic." Ever since I learned of it, I can't help but be curious. There are fifteen releases. Number codes, though, go to 18? So who knows the real total? Each is literally one minute long (C01).

>> https://www.discogs.com/label/535262-Waste-Of-Plastic<<

deutscheasphalt

#21
Quote from: Strangecross on November 07, 2019, 07:16:47 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on November 07, 2019, 07:10:30 PM

When talking about "wasting plastic" I want to remind you of the beauty of being able to re-use tape. If you don't like a release and feel like it's a waste of plastic just dub your favorite stuff on there. Also defining the line at which length it's not a waste anymore is super arbitrary. It comes down to what you personally like as C10.

They are running out of chrome tape, afterall... not plastic casings.

I was addressing the OP's point about "wasting plastic", they didn't mention the chrome tape "issue" which I personally think is a myth. Big manufacturers I work with have had no problems supplying chrome tapes whatsoever and it obviously will be continued to be produced if the demand exists. Like what - is the planet gonna run out of super rare chrome dioxide? I don't know where this rumor comes from.

Cementimental

I should finally get around to making some release using the C1 (might actually be shorter I think) chrome tapes I bought on ebay years ago

Balor/SS1535

Quote from: PTM Jim on November 07, 2019, 06:15:21 PM
C10s are one of my favorites. They are like a 7". A small concept that doesn't necessarily warrant a full length's worth of material or ideas.
Noise is not just about the sound; concept and packaging are half the battle (be it highly conceptual vs no concept or elaborate packaging vs standard j-case. All of that should be considered when releasing something.)
C10s aren't that much cheaper than doing a C30, just as 7"s aren't much cheaper than doing an LP (they are about 70% the price)

Comparing them to 7"s was first thought as well.
Short releases often have, in my mind, some of the best material.  I think that understanding the need to make an impression on the listener in a short period of time makes the musician have to really make sure that every element of the track(s) they create is meaningful and worthwhile.  As some others said above, merely having more room to work does not make your release any better - in fact, the extra space might be taken as an excuse to be less particular/lazy!

holy ghost

I will echo the sentiment that I would rather hear 10 solid minutes than a C60 of filler.

HOWEVER I also find it somewhat obnoxious when an artist puts out like numerous short run tapes in a short period of time and trying to track them down becomes a huge hassle. If you're prolific quite frankly  I'd rather buy one or two C40s than a ton of tiny run C8s or some shit.

This is related to cost as much as it is to "output". Outside the US there's no media mail and shipping is a huge barrier for supporting artists I want to support by buying their stuff.

slagfrenzy tapes

Quote from: burdizzo on November 07, 2019, 01:50:17 PM
Personally I PREFER short tapes. Long tapes, you often don't know where you are, and as the other fella said, if you can't do some good noise in 10 minutes, then you won't do it over half an hour. Plus, a 10-15 mins blast of good strong noise is often enough.

Quote from: slagfrenzy tapes on November 07, 2019, 12:39:38 PM
Not happy about how weather is spelt...

It's "whether", by the way. "Weather" is stuff falling from the sky, while a "wether" is a castrated sheep!

Sorry for the delay, been worried whether the weather is going to affect the wether's.
Thank you kind fella for this.

I like 7inch singles, better than C10's. More flexibility with playback. Listened to Haare single two nights ago, all good.
'waste of plastic' more in the context of bad factory based production methods than Rainforest whinging, this planets fucked, pleased, as some of you may be, I haven't bred. Not going to stop practicing thou.
Economics of C10. I've paid $100 for a 7 inch single, wouldn't for a C10. Some tool who won't give a quarter inch master tape back to us, was pulling his self about paying $1000 each for four C10's, so there's mugs out there.

To wrap up, C10 just inefficient in my opinion, wondered/curious about other opinions.. Cheers all

FreakAnimalFinland

My assumption for reason that old noise releases are so long, was mainly that stores were selling C-60 and C-90. So bands and labels put out tapes of those lengths. C-45 were way more rare to find.

As soon as shorter tapes were easier available, there were being done.

I am not particularly fan of C-10, although I appreciate 7" a lot. It is perhaps because there are TONS of good 7"s, where artists put great track on slab of vinyl, yet C-10 is often treated differently. Especially at some point, it seemed sort of disposable format. Quickly dubbing small run to having "something out" for gig or latest batch, not that it would be standing out like 7" material might. Of course there are exceptions.

However, like someone pointed out, it may be quite old discussion now. Who is making C-10's? It had it's peak in over 10 years ago, and at this moment, barely existing thing?

For live music culture, diy, face to face interaction, special packages, etc. perhaps very much suitable format. In international mailorder thing, I would guess that most people will conclude that they aren't paying the money that it nowadays costs to buy AND ship tape, and get just 10 minutes. Regardless is it good or not. You can get bunch of good, and perhaps better releases for same money.

For me, C-20 is already perfect length of tape that is not meant to be "album". For a lot of noise styles, that are more structured or hectic, length may be perfect. 
E-mail: fanimal +a+ cfprod,com
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urall

Quote from: FreakAnimalFinland on November 08, 2019, 09:50:10 AM


However, like someone pointed out, it may be quite old discussion now. Who is making C-10's? It had it's peak in over 10 years ago, and at this moment, barely existing thing?

the most recent (1 year ago ?) i can remember is the händer som vårdar release on Joy De Vivre.

PTM Jim

Quote from: deutscheasphalt on November 07, 2019, 07:46:57 PM
Like what - is the planet gonna run out of super rare chrome dioxide? I don't know where this rumor comes from.
From what I understand, producing it causes some kind of heavily toxic byproduct that is no longer passing emissions standards. That's why Russia doesn't make it anymore and that's why NAC is now producing what they call "super ferric." It's apparently better quality that chrome, or so they've said. 

deutscheasphalt

Quote from: PTM Jim on November 08, 2019, 04:03:53 PM
Quote from: deutscheasphalt on November 07, 2019, 07:46:57 PM
Like what - is the planet gonna run out of super rare chrome dioxide? I don't know where this rumor comes from.
From what I understand, producing it causes some kind of heavily toxic byproduct that is no longer passing emissions standards. That's why Russia doesn't make it anymore and that's why NAC is now producing what they call "super ferric." It's apparently better quality that chrome, or so they've said. 

What's your source on that? I've never heard the toxicity being substantiated as a reason why plants seized production. More of like a costly process to synthesize the crystals that wasn't feasible in multiple locations.