Special Interest

GENERAL VISUAL ART / LITERATURE DISCUSSION => GENERAL VISUAL ART / LITERATURE DISCUSSION => Topic started by: EXU on February 11, 2019, 09:08:26 PM



Title: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: EXU on February 11, 2019, 09:08:26 PM
Well, by now every one of you must be aware of this, but I made a thread because I think it may be an interesting topic to all of us in a less broad sense, I mean, everyone who ever posted on this forum will be tagged as a nazi from now on, since guilty by association and impossible (?) to check internet commentaries are cabal proof of something.

This article, eh...

https://thequietus.com/articles/26024-skullflower-matthew-bower-fascism-racism (https://thequietus.com/articles/26024-skullflower-matthew-bower-fascism-racism)

PS. I know this kind of stuff is always happening but I wanted some clickbait thread title... Don't know if should have posted it on the main forum too.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Harvest on February 12, 2019, 12:15:02 AM
hehehe, that pasi quote is not good optics by most standards. what does one expect from a mind so violent and filthy? surprised it hasn't come up sooner as most anything that can be traced back to iphar is getting the big rubber stamp of "nazi" thanks to a certain infamous comp.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: deutscheasphalt on February 12, 2019, 12:39:48 AM
"pagan Europe of distinct nation-states" !!???
what an absolute joke of an article. Fuck progressivism.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: EXU on February 12, 2019, 03:21:20 AM
The "Pure" being a wink to nazism is just too much for me to handle.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: re:evolution on February 12, 2019, 07:47:54 AM
https://thequietus.com/users/20441 (https://thequietus.com/users/20441)

Note the three articles attributed to the author of the Skullflower hatchet job. Clearly there is a wider agenda at play, and based on the bottom article, it sound like other witch-hunts are to be evoked as part of an ongoing 'expose'.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Kim V on February 12, 2019, 10:24:08 AM
https://thequietus.com/users/20441 (https://thequietus.com/users/20441)

Note the three articles attributed to the author of the Skullflower hatchet job. Clearly there is a wider agenda at play, and based on the bottom article, it sound like other witch-hunts are to be evoked as part of an ongoing 'expose'.

could be right. But fuck 'em. We have suffered this since day one. We're still here, doing what we do.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Ashmonger on February 12, 2019, 02:34:28 PM
Wow, what a weak article. In general I like people being nuanced more than with blatant standpoints, but this guy is constantly taking down his own points. This reads like "this and that is not so bad in itself.... but this guy is a nazi and nazis are bad mkay".

Also, the article "Beyond The Iron Gates: How Nazi-Satanists Infiltrated the UK Underground" has this line in the introduction "Please note - this article contains imagery that some readers might find disturbing." Say no more...


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: ConcreteMascara on February 12, 2019, 03:19:45 PM
https://thequietus.com/users/20441 (https://thequietus.com/users/20441)

Note the three articles attributed to the author of the Skullflower hatchet job. Clearly there is a wider agenda at play, and based on the bottom article, it sound like other witch-hunts are to be evoked as part of an ongoing 'expose'.

The “Beyond the Iron Gates” article is so absurd I chuckled my way through the whole thing. The idea that the Order of the 9 Angels are some deadly neo-nazi cabal instead of anything mlre than cosplay nerds is laughable


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: tiny_tove on February 12, 2019, 09:25:41 PM
fucking idiots.

andrew king is the most quiet person in the world. guys who are beefing with him have personal issues and have been suggested by some irrational moron on other side.

there is no way out.

no debating, no interaction, separate scene and kick the shit out of them if they show up protesting.
they are damaging people and there should be ever again one single hint of respect for these gentlemen.

I am not a political person since i am happy live by pretty different standards that are unacceptable for many and have no issues with lefties (most people in industrial are), my issues is with people creating evidence from hear-a-say, warriors of freedom that hit the wrong targets and live behind a keyboard and then cry when hit by justice.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: A-Z on February 13, 2019, 12:36:24 AM
Quote
Andrew Dymock, 21, and Oskar Dunn-Koczorowki, 17, leading members of Sonnenkrieg Division, a British offshoot of National Action with strong ties to Atomwaffen Division and the O9A, were arrested and charged with terrorist offences after distributing memes suggesting that Prince Harry should be shot as a race traitor.

excuse me, what?


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: tiny_tove on February 13, 2019, 01:01:12 AM
"We invite Matthew Bower to respond to this article"

So since when this Miller guy is an authority?

I hope Bower does not fall in the trap and answer. The article is full of mistakes and superficial. a cut and paste of already existing crap.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: online prowler on February 13, 2019, 01:43:33 AM
HA! This was new to me and fairly uninteresting. Thanks for shit post. This guy, the credited pen-man Dylan Miller, couldn't even write a proper meme. Just sad click-bait explotation, couldn't read the uninformed text in full, but laughed out loud to Exhibitionistic explode-in-all-directions BU quote! That was grand. Anyways, Miller sounds like a guy who'd post his own article in a noise forum to stir up his own fart. Glad you beat him to it.



Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: sunandsteel on February 13, 2019, 09:16:44 AM
Seems like its the beginning of noise/PE's turn to get the good ol' Kim Kelly/sanitizing treatment.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on February 13, 2019, 09:17:31 AM
I would not be surprised if the guy behind writing articles under name Dylan Miller would be exposed to be someone rather familiar in the scene? Although... "Investigation" is so shallow, that anyone could pull that article based on organizers facebook post.

My favorite quote would be probably:
Quote from: Dylan Miller of Quetus
Certainly they have a welcoming home on the Cold Spring label, where martial edgelords, cryptofascists and their apologists rub shoulders with noise and industrial artists too physically or psychically dead to care anymore.

haha!!!

Whether he is newbie or just someone who doesn't get it, it is quite well displayed here:

Quote
Yes, Bower has spent a career exploring the abyss, but at some point he also became the abyss. And in our fucked up, fracturing and fractious world that abyss is no longer an obsidian edge ready to expose the hypocrisies of the mainstream – it is the mainstream, and it has engulfed us. This is why we, Raw Power and others have finally drawn a line in the sand – you are either with the people who seek to inflame hatred and division, or you are against them. We are against them.

I doubt, that it was somehow a rule of industrial music, that one explores the abyss, in attempt to expose the hypocrisies of the mainstream? I'd say it is rather to expose yourself to abyss to expose something in you and perhaps listeners who may experience the same. With open mind, free of moralism and spite. To look the abyss, eye to eye, and in the end conclusions may vary. You just might come into conclusion that general impression was right. Or you might come into conclusion that society that has conditioned us to respond like the average "Dylan Miller" and you see world in new angle. Becoming abyss - perhaps! Exposing "mainstream" is byproduct of this.

These characters, just ride on the high horse pointing out lame, utterly lame, verbal diarrhea what could be summed to "brexit.. trump... nazis.." -wail. So engulfed by evils... oh man. Talk about drooling dogs.

Industrial music clearly has social function still today. I don't think it is about men who are psychically dead to care anymore, but about men who are psychically so alive and driven by faustian spirit that they do not mind crossing the "lines drawn in sand" by anonymous retards.
I'm quite confident that Bower won't be issuing any silly statements. It's would be setting good example, as some old English industrial veterans have been disappointingly ripe for moralist crusaders to pick up and use for embarrassing publicity stunts.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Strömkarlen on February 13, 2019, 12:07:33 PM
Speaking of people named Miller. Why is never Daniel Miller of Mute getting any shite? He use to engineer Boyds live shows in Europe for crying out loud and released his records. Oh, yeah he is rich and has a lawyer or two...


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Ashmonger on February 13, 2019, 02:28:44 PM
There's an article about Black Metal too, here: https://thequietus.com/articles/25989-darkthrone-transilvanian-hunger-emperor-in-the-nightside-eclipse-review-anniversary?fbclid=IwAR0KAjQbaQQQWEujqivTYSjqiXPymCSzLy67nwUs5BeB9ejM6yao7opoNpI (https://thequietus.com/articles/25989-darkthrone-transilvanian-hunger-emperor-in-the-nightside-eclipse-review-anniversary?fbclid=IwAR0KAjQbaQQQWEujqivTYSjqiXPymCSzLy67nwUs5BeB9ejM6yao7opoNpI).
Didn't read it in full, just the first part and there's an interesting sentence here about Faust and him playing again in a band with other Emperor-members: "It's possible that prison time and the years of growth since his early adulthood crime have changed his views and behaviours, but it's hard to say that this matters when there is another human who will never get a chance to experience the life that was stolen from him." Further on the writer explains that the guys from Emperor think he's had his sentence. But according to the writer that doesn't matter. The writer clearly has the moral high ground. *sigh*

About that O9A article: I wouldn't be surprised if there are people who take O9A serious enough to act upon it, but of course it's all too clear from the article that the writer has every interest in presenting it way bigger and worse than it is. That he mentions that a guy is being charged with terrorist offences for distributing memes drives that point home. He of course thinks this is justified and has no clue that it will make his argumentation etc hysterical.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: GEWALTMONOPOL on February 13, 2019, 04:13:20 PM
Speaking of people named Miller. Why is never Daniel Miller of Mute getting any shite? He use to engineer Boyds live shows in Europe for crying out loud and released his records. Oh, yeah he is rich and has a lawyer or two...

Also, The Quietus is a wannabe The Wire and isn't going to ruffle the feathers of a major mover and shaker within the independent UK music industry like Mute. They know this and will keep within the safe margins of who they attack. Cold Spring, in spite of it's size, is still enough of an outsider from polite indie label society that TQ risk nothing when having a pop at them. Mute, arguably one of the biggest independent labels in the world, with affiliations everywhere is a totally differen't level. They'll never go there.




Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: eraciator on February 13, 2019, 04:19:24 PM
Quote
Andrew Dymock, 21, and Oskar Dunn-Koczorowki, 17, leading members of Sonnenkrieg Division, a British offshoot of National Action with strong ties to Atomwaffen Division and the O9A, were arrested and charged with terrorist offences after distributing memes suggesting that Prince Harry should be shot as a race traitor.

excuse me, what?

My recollection is that he was charged for incitement for the memes (and possibly other stuff we don’t know about) and being a member of a proscribed organisation. The latter is basically terror related.

The former is one to watch for UK people with fringe politics or producers of extreme material. Certainly some of the veterans of Class War have said there is no way they would get away with some of the early issues of their paper now.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: eraciator on February 13, 2019, 04:29:28 PM
Bower’s been trying to wind people up for the last few years with this stuff. Magick defends itself eh.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on February 13, 2019, 06:08:49 PM
can't decide if this being the next article up there is a coincidence or genius trolling https://thequietus.com/articles/26028-witchfinder-general-music-electric-wizard


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: EXU on February 13, 2019, 06:59:28 PM
Speaking of people named Miller. Why is never Daniel Miller of Mute getting any shite? He use to engineer Boyds live shows in Europe for crying out loud and released his records. Oh, yeah he is rich and has a lawyer or two...

Also, The Quietus is a wannabe The Wire and isn't going to ruffle the feathers of a major mover and shaker within the independent UK music industry like Mute. They know this and will keep within the safe margins of who they attack. Cold Spring, in spite of it's size, is still enough of an outsider from polite indie label society that TQ risk nothing when having a pop at them. Mute, arguably one of the biggest independent labels in the world, with affiliations everywhere is a totally differen't level. They'll never go there.


It's telling that not a word is said about Justin Broadrick links with Skullflower that are stronger than "played some show with them once". JK Flesh is one of the headliners from the Raw Power (pfff...) Festival.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: l.b. on February 13, 2019, 07:23:34 PM
i would have more respect for these fucks if they would at least stand by their stupid principles. these articles never make any real conclusions and the sentences always end with wishy-washy bullshit like "is he a nazi? we don't know. should you stop buying his music? i cant say for sure" like fuck you dude, don't waste my time with this shit. hipsters in noise is one thing but stay the fuck out of black metal


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on February 13, 2019, 09:05:01 PM
i would have more respect for these fucks if they would at least stand by their stupid principles. these articles never make any real conclusions and the sentences always end with wishy-washy bullshit like "is he a nazi? we don't know. should you stop buying his music? i cant say for sure" like fuck you dude, don't waste my time with this shit. hipsters in noise is one thing but stay the fuck out of black metal

Too late. BM is infested by people like that. Or lets say, their side of metal. I don't know single guy who'd have issues listening Emperor due member stabbing faggot who tried to take advantage of teenage metalhead. I guess they exist somewhere, but I never met one.

It is true, that very few articles make conclusions. I would assume that it is sign of playing it safe. Authors certainly knows that it is enough to raise question, and this question will remain in peoples mind, despite what was the real conclusion - if there was any. Whatever target of accusation will say, the original outrage will be remember. If shit hits the fan, guy who wrote the smear campaign can yell "well, I didn't say he was...", ...like a little bitch.

Remember when mr. 88MM a.k.a. Dagon of Inquisition was accused of... hmm. what exactly? Just about half of metal scene cried over decade old case where man has maybe watched something online. We don't know what it is. We don't know why. But outrage fueled by shittiest metal blogs caused them quite a lot. Even people who generally have some sense, lost their shit over speculation of "what it could have been". As if transgressive underground suddenly turned to be moralist branch of Jerry Springer audience. Repulsive incident indeed.

Equally repulsed, I can not understate how disappointing it is to see someone like Philip Best to apologize (now related to this Bower case) in social media for old compilation tape he did as teenager. Considering that he ain't producing exactly "nice stuff" now either. So what the fuck? What is there to apologize?

Before someone says you don't know, before you take the heat, before you got something to lose... Well, I guess there has been occasion or another. And without doubt will be few more to come. I would hope people to understand that to go agains the current, means friction. You know you are going to right direction when there is friction.

I'd keep my fingers crossed that Bower, like said, will set good example of old English scene to keep his calm. I guess Justin of Cold Spring has. Very much respectable behavior.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: deutscheasphalt on February 13, 2019, 11:24:23 PM
Equally repulsed, I can not understate how disappointing it is to see someone like Philip Best to apologize (now related to this Bower case) in social media for old compilation tape he did as teenager. Considering that he ain't producing exactly "nice stuff" now either. So what the fuck? What is there to apologize?

Any source for said apology you could link? Would be interested to read how he phrased it.
When this happens I am often not sure where the pressure for making a public statement comes from, since most of the time antifa and such don't really have any arguments at all. I guess it's just "general fear" of online character assassination or damage to business or artist image. However I agree such apologies or even justification regarding own artwork are very weak, like losing one's face.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: PTM Jim on February 14, 2019, 02:44:49 AM
An apology goes nowhere because those whom it is directed at in the first place almost always don't accept it anyway, unless you are on their side and made a "mistake." I was so disappointed when Nyogthaeblisz did their long-winded justification/apology. They are supposed to be a band that says 'fuck you' or nothing at all. I'd rather people push back harder or double down. Saying sorry is going to perpetuate the problem and keep them justifying their calls outs because we look weak and scared. 


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: l.b. on February 14, 2019, 02:45:44 AM
I guess they exist somewhere, but I never met one.
here in US plenty of "pizza & beer" type metalheads get all bent out of shape about faust

Quote
Equally repulsed, I can not understate how disappointing it is to see someone like Philip Best to apologize (now related to this Bower case) in social media for old compilation tape he did as teenager.
would also be curious to see a link to this or something, not familiar with this particular incident but reminds me of william bennett and mark solotroff feeling compelled to write long facebook screeds in light of the, ah, "fresh attention" as it were

edit: curious also what gets "a pass," plenty of otherwise-lefty types love genocide organ. guys from inade/loki found don't seem to have any problems


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: deutscheasphalt on February 14, 2019, 03:12:29 AM
edit: curious also what gets "a pass," plenty of otherwise-lefty types love genocide organ. guys from inade/loki found don't seem to have any problems

As those are like the 2 most popular German exports the widespread audience is not surprising let alone none of the associated groups glorify fascist ideologies and conduct themselves in a relatively private manner. But even if that wasn't the case, the reason why artists are attacked, harassed, cancelled is literally not more than a snowflake being triggered, so "what gets a pass" is totally unpredictable.
Sorry if this is off-topic it seems to be drifting off into general free-speech/censorship bullshit.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: HongKongGoolagong on February 14, 2019, 09:13:56 AM
Bower’s been trying to wind people up for the last few years with this stuff.

Releasing records dealing with North African themes for an anti-imperialist record label run by an Algerian guy living in Egypt. Travelling to Texas to collaborate with a virulently and vocally anti-Trump married gay couple. When booked at an old-school industrial festival, hiring a crossdressing shaman to speak in tongues in front of all those insignia wearers. Donating a track to get some kid off the internet's record label started, a label named after a feminist Beyonce song with all the cultural coding that implies.

The "Dylan Miller" pieces are a collaboration between John Doran and Luke Turner to my knowledge.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Strömkarlen on February 14, 2019, 11:24:19 AM
Speaking of people named Miller. Why is never Daniel Miller of Mute getting any shite? He use to engineer Boyds live shows in Europe for crying out loud and released his records. Oh, yeah he is rich and has a lawyer or two...

Also, The Quietus is a wannabe The Wire and isn't going to ruffle the feathers of a major mover and shaker within the independent UK music industry like Mute. They know this and will keep within the safe margins of who they attack. Cold Spring, in spite of it's size, is still enough of an outsider from polite indie label society that TQ risk nothing when having a pop at them. Mute, arguably one of the biggest independent labels in the world, with affiliations everywhere is a totally differen't level. They'll never go there.

Yeah. I'm also ready with the popcorn for the fall-out over Lord of Chaos film. I don't see them pushing that is a film based on a book by Michael Moynihan... but on the other hand with Ridley Scoots company, Vice and 20 century fox involved the  likes of TQ will tread gently.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: online prowler on February 14, 2019, 12:05:40 PM
Bower’s been trying to wind people up for the last few years with this stuff.

The "Dylan Miller" pieces are a collaboration between John Doran and Luke Turner to my knowledge.

What is your documentation on this?


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on February 14, 2019, 01:12:27 PM
Equally repulsed, I can not understate how disappointing it is to see someone like Philip Best to apologize (now related to this Bower case) in social media for old compilation tape he did as teenager. Considering that he ain't producing exactly "nice stuff" now either. So what the fuck? What is there to apologize?

Any source for said apology you could link? Would be interested to read how he phrased it.

I massively respect that apology and don't for a minute think it's anything he feels pressured into or isn't genuine about, especially considering it was in the context of his posts critical of this whole anti-skullflower thing. I don't see why someone should be expected to still defend and refuse to explain some dumb teenage prank decades later just so a load of nostalgic industrial record collectors can still feel like it was 'real' or whatever.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: HongKongGoolagong on February 14, 2019, 03:42:59 PM
The "Dylan Miller" pieces are a collaboration between John Doran and Luke Turner to my knowledge.
What is your documentation on this?

Doran on social media saying that the pieces were his and Turner's attempts at self-accountability, having given promotion to a lot of this area of music in the past. And I guess being aware that some associations won't look good to future employers, corporations etc. Seeing as he is about to launch a BBC series New Weird Britain, Turner has a first novel out via a multinational publisher etc.

The Skullflower recent LPs on Nashazphone are still available via advertising links on The Quietus website. The clicks on this series have probably saved the website's financial plight single handedly.

Magick defends itself, so does money.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on February 14, 2019, 03:58:44 PM
I don't see why someone should be expected to still defend and refuse to explain some dumb teenage prank decades later.

I dont see what there is to apologize for? Considering that apart  name, there is no wp music in it. Just juicy sex noise. Isn’t that basically rough category where one could still file Many of his works?

It is possible that some people respect apologies. I come from generation where ug artists did not apologize for hurt feelings. You expected listeners to think themselves. Times are different now, obviously.

That said, one can be sure What is result. one follows that particular discussion further sees the proof: it becomes blatantly clear how the only ones who would demand ”apologize/explanation” will not accept it.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: online prowler on February 14, 2019, 06:16:58 PM
The "Dylan Miller" pieces are a collaboration between John Doran and Luke Turner to my knowledge.
What is your documentation on this?

Doran on social media saying that the pieces were his and Turner's attempts at self-accountability, having given promotion to a lot of this area of music in the past. And I guess being aware that some associations won't look good to future employers, corporations etc. Seeing as he is about to launch a BBC series New Weird Britain, Turner has a first novel out via a multinational publisher etc.

The Skullflower recent LPs on Nashazphone are still available via advertising links on The Quietus website. The clicks on this series have probably saved the website's financial plight single handedly.

Magick defends itself, so does money.


You have a link? Would like to see.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: cr on February 14, 2019, 09:22:40 PM
The "Pure" being a wink to nazism is just too much for me to handle.

I'm absolutely sure, that Total was totally inspired by totalitarian Nazi regimes. And Skullflower undoubtedly got part of it's name from the SS skull.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: aububs on February 14, 2019, 09:46:21 PM
I don't see why someone should be expected to still defend and refuse to explain some dumb teenage prank decades later.

I dont see what there is to apologize for? Considering that apart  name, there is no wp music in it. Just juicy sex noise. Isn’t that basically rough category where one could still file Many of his works?

none of his other works reference nazism. he's apologising for the work that does. which is good. not being a nazi is good, as i'm sure everybody on the special interests forum will agree


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: spiritassembly on February 14, 2019, 09:47:08 PM
In response to cr, above: no, not really.


http://skullflower-skullflowertruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/name.html (http://skullflower-skullflowertruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/name.html)



Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: aububs on February 14, 2019, 10:44:55 PM
it was posted as part of a discussion on nate young's facebook timeline, i think


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: cr on February 14, 2019, 10:52:08 PM
In response to cr, above: no, not really.


http://skullflower-skullflowertruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/name.html (http://skullflower-skullflowertruth.blogspot.com/2011/10/name.html)



Yeah...and I was completely serious.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Theodore on February 15, 2019, 06:03:29 PM
I don't see why someone should be expected to still defend and refuse to explain some dumb teenage prank decades later just so a load of nostalgic industrial record collectors can still feel like it was 'real' or whatever.

I dont see why someone should accuse and demand apologies for some teenage prank [or not] decades later. Actualy i see, a political agenda and in most cases not supported / promoted for ideological reasons but for public relations, business, money.

This is not an artist said to friends and fans when in chat "Hey, dont take things i did decades ago too seriously" . Or it came out naturally in a nice interview. This is a system demanding humilating apologies and loyalty from now on. Systematicaly ...

Anyway, everyone make his choices. Dignity or more gigs / promotion.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on February 15, 2019, 06:38:35 PM
Quote
This is not an artist said to friends and fans when in chat "Hey, dont take things i did decades ago too seriously" .

yeah it pretty much was tho. I can't find the thread but it wasn't some 'SJW' twitter boogieman demanding an apology, or anyone from quietus or whevever. It just came up in a pretty constructive discussion in a facebook thread, not as a response to someone attacking him over it.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Theodore on February 16, 2019, 02:01:10 AM
Quote
This is not an artist said to friends and fans when in chat "Hey, dont take things i did decades ago too seriously" .

yeah it pretty much was tho. I can't find the thread but it wasn't some 'SJW' twitter boogieman demanding an apology, or anyone from quietus or whevever. It just came up in a pretty constructive discussion in a facebook thread, not as a response to someone attacking him over it.

Maybe. I mean i havent seen it, dont know. I wasnt talking about Best or anyone's specific case. In general, and not only about the small noise "scene" , it happens in every aspect of "public" life . This system attacks everyone who does or says something that doesnt fit their agenda. Their ultimate goal is that humiliating apology, which even if it's sincere, wont be accepted neither believed cause it's under pressure and blackmails. They dont care only to destroy you, but above all to humiliate you, to see you begging for their [!] forgiveness. That's the real demonstration of power and the clear message to everyone else, be like us, work with us or you will probably loose the most important a man has. Dignity, self-respect, call it what you like, you know what i mean ...


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on February 16, 2019, 09:29:38 AM
yeah it pretty much was tho. I can't find the thread but it wasn't some 'SJW' twitter boogieman demanding an apology, or anyone from quietus or whevever.

I suppose the thread is removed? "Pretty much" describes it well. Since one may see it as casual and constructive discussion and conclude that it is almost completely that. Yet, being almost...  another angle, is that rather public and well known guy who is known to stir trouble time to time, posts article and comments it's good writing and includes soon quote:

Quote
schoolboy Philip Best (Consumer Electronics/Whitehouse) released his infamous White Power cassette, and two volumes of Oswald Moseley speeches, on his Iphar cassette label (we’ll have more on this period in a future piece).

So, seeing your name mentioned, plus promise of more to come. Seeing people who operate on field of art quite close to you on verge of causing unnecessary obstacles... I can't blame much feeling urgent to comment somehow. I'm sure he regrets the tape title, as it is clear it still today causes more trouble than good things. To me it would feel that explanation would be fine, apology unnecessary. Why?

I dont see what there is to apologize for? Considering that apart  name, there is no wp music in it. Just juicy sex noise. Isn’t that basically rough category where one could still file Many of his works?

none of his other works reference nazism. he's apologising for the work that does. which is good. not being a nazi is good, as i'm sure everybody on the special interests forum will agree

People who oppose "nazism", generally oppose negative qualities what they associate with it. Discrimination, totalitarian authority, domination by the strong, acceptance of violence, anti-feminism, dehumanization and mockery of seemingly weaker groups of people, etc. They generally oppose these things regardless what brand is used to promote them. So for vast majority of folks, it doesn't really matter if you do not flirt with political history, but for example, just dehumanize women and glorify violence etc. If one looks at works of industrial/pe artists known somewhat provocative (in general, not even case of Best), you'll be bound to find this material. Some people do not like it nor they know how to handle it - beyond being outraged or disgusted. Even if they are completely unaware of motivations, true message, the standing offer of dialogue between material & listener.

It's like this Quietus comment section where someone was calling out Con-Dom. In fucking 2019! After every damn interview he has ever given, that speaks about modus operandi of project. And it still goes down to "hey, look he said the N-word some decades ago!!!". And as result you got handful of people running to defend how nice guy the artist is. And even if he is, that's besides the point.

There is rather great quote from GX of THE HATERS, about content of his work:
Quote from: GX in Troubled Sleep#3
The more people misunderstand me, the more I can understand myself. It's a kind of psychic calibration. Comparing a reinterpretation to the original intent gives me a deeper awareness of my own thought process. By this means, there is no passive audience, only collaborators.

Provocative artists, especially considering all the names mentioned here, are as far as I can tell, intelligent guys. They should know now that when you provoke, don't be surprised when people are provoked. If intention was just to piss off people, then work certainly succeeds. If one is to deliver more complex message and provocation is rather meant to spark people think outside the box -so to say-, one could start to observe why it is not getting through even if it seems plain obvious to artist? What I do not think intelligent guys are looking after, is conforming themselves to level of seemingly clueless mass. If that would the case, then it would be certainly easy as fuck: Apology, and get in the line.

(In cases, like name dropped Bizarre Uproar, it has no agenda beyond exploitative pleasures. It's sex noise from the world were sexual identities are told to flourish in all shapes and colors, and it certainly does.)


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Lazrs3 on February 16, 2019, 03:03:23 PM
I'd watched the fallout from this on Facebook and I feel Raw Power were keen to use Skullflower's name to give their weak festival some credibility, but then they realised that stabbing Bower in the back would give them plenty of free publicity, I'd never heard of them before this.

I hadn't even heard of the Quietus either, I checked the article at the time and it was laughable and weak. The same goes for the allegations made.





Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on February 16, 2019, 03:28:55 PM
I feel Raw Power were keen to use Skullflower's name to give their weak festival some credibility, but then they realised that stabbing Bower in the back would give them plenty of free publicity, I'd never heard of them before this.

I on the other hand have not only heard of them but been to most of their very strong and credible festivals (always very high quality, well organised, well attended, good sound, good crowd, great lineups so long as you like mostly psych/heavy/doomy rock-ish stuff ha) and also have worked for the promoter on graphic design/posters for the very many really superb gigs they put on every month. I have know the promoter for absolutely years since he was putting on small DIY noise/experimental gigs, AKA before half the internet PE goons assuming Raw Power is some clueless 'hipster' noob festival had even discovered Whitehouse via youtube links they found on 4chan. :D

It's not true that he's some 'hipster' 'SJW' outsider, and it's not true that he's cynically kicking up a fuss for publicity. Whatever you think of the decision he has simply seen material and statements he personally finds unacceptable and, as he has absolutely every right to do, has cancelled an artist because of it after first giving them a chance to respond.

Doesn't look like Bower is too bothered by all this anyway, he's deleted his repost of the cancellation email, deleted blog comments supportive of him and gone back to posting horse photos and nice folksy pagan bits of wood :D


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Lazrs3 on February 16, 2019, 03:40:48 PM
I feel Raw Power were keen to use Skullflower's name to give their weak festival some credibility, but then they realised that stabbing Bower in the back would give them plenty of free publicity, I'd never heard of them before this.

AKA before half the internet PE goons assuming Raw Power is some clueless 'hipster' noob festival had even discovered Whitehouse via youtube links they found on 4chan. :D



Internet PE Goons, that's too funny. :D , I can't argue back, I don't mean to be rude, I am too amused and that made my day.  


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: deutscheasphalt on February 16, 2019, 05:10:43 PM
It's not true that he's some 'hipster' 'SJW' outsider, and it's not true that he's cynically kicking up a fuss for publicity. Whatever you think of the decision he has simply seen material and statements he personally finds unacceptable and, as he has absolutely every right to do, has cancelled an artist because of it after first giving them a chance to respond.

To formulate an accurate opinion it would be necessary to know how exactly he got cancelled and what was said. It is hard for me to believe the ignorance in suddenly finding out about some "questionable" (whatever the fuck that means) shitposts by an artists who is already on your bill and then cancelling them because of that. That seems like such a douche move to me but if the majority of your target audience applauds this then I don't think it's too far fetched to speculate a publicity motive. Censorship in art is atrocious in my opinion and promoters these days are fucking pussies backing down from anything that could potentially cause backlash. People act like it's a virtuous thing to deplatform artists as if their performance would turn the whole audience into nazis.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: HongKongGoolagong on February 16, 2019, 08:23:41 PM
I was having a private discussion with John Doran (Quietus, BBC, Vice mag etc etc) in the days before he decided to run with the piece. We managed to remain civil with each other - we have a number of real life friends in common.

Fairly convinced that the motives for this series are purely financial, unlike the ideological reasoning of previous dissenting voices calling for self-policing in underground (Christoph Fringeli/Datacide, Andy Wilson/WMTN, Stewart Home, John Eden etc).

Most recent interview with Bower clearly states that his star of origin is Sirius.

We are the opposers of the sun god and white bread family

http://magreb.org/2017/06/skullflower-eng/




Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: online prowler on February 16, 2019, 09:32:54 PM
I was having a private discussion with John Doran (Quietus, BBC, Vice mag etc etc) in the days before he decided to run with the piece. We managed to remain civil with each other - we have a number of real life friends in common.

Thanks for the notice S.

In what regards to the rest of this mess of a thread I cannot care less. Still there is an option for those whom want and cannot reach by iron fist. Utilize guerilla internet tactics and hit Quietus and related folk where it might hurt - in the 'cash-in internet clicks'. Would love to see a wave of social media reporting of their posts as spam, bullying, etc. Posts are at your disposal to be removed if you really care. Music is war.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: HongKongGoolagong on February 16, 2019, 10:03:10 PM
Excellent interview re: the Nashazphone label who released the last two Skullflower LPs before this tedious drama is at https://madamasr.com/en/2017/04/04/feature/culture/music-industry-conversations-hicham-chadly/



Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: EXU on February 17, 2019, 12:10:58 AM
I hadn't even heard of the Quietus either, I checked the article at the time and it was laughable and weak.

This one is quite enjoyable if I remember right:

https://thequietus.com/articles/13503-skullflower-stefan-jaworzyn-interview (https://thequietus.com/articles/13503-skullflower-stefan-jaworzyn-interview)

But I guess the new one received more clicks in a week than this one ever.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on March 01, 2019, 01:55:57 PM
UPDATE: MB is selling a stick painted pink


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Lazrs3 on March 02, 2019, 01:32:25 PM
UPDATE: MB is selling a stick painted pink

Ahem - Fire Snake!


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Bloated Slutbag on March 04, 2019, 09:52:51 AM
I guess this is kind of inevitable when certain (political) tropes get mixed up with event called RAW POWER. Maybe put a little more thought into the name next time?


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: PuddysJacket on March 14, 2019, 08:02:13 PM
I guess this is kind of inevitable when certain (political) tropes get mixed up with event called RAW POWER. Maybe put a little more thought into the name next time?


Seriously. Pick a different Stooges album next time, one that can't be misconstrued as a veiled attack on women/minorities/plants/animals/food choices.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 02:18:25 AM
they are waaay ahead of you :)

(https://tix-media-files.s3.amazonaws.com/img/cache/img/events/1311/baba-yagas-hut-all-n/fun_house2_web_fulllineup/8c759b059faa1b376e68db105fe521f8.jpg)

(deleted a more argumentative reply :) )


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 02:34:52 PM
CALLING ALL PE GOONS: remind me again how the Black Sun is an A-OK symbol to put on the cover of your album of prosumer preset synth drones, weak yelling from an MS Word lyric sheet thru an behringer echo and goofy flanger mic feedback, or suitable for your middle class 'occult goth' living room decor in the background of your cat photos on instagram, and that ordinary non-nazi people offended by it are being unreasonable 'snowflakes' jumping to ridiculous conclusions
 
(https://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/204/photos/547000/breaking-christchurch-mosque-shooting-deans-avenue-bangladesh-team-latest-1587547.jpg)


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on March 15, 2019, 03:36:19 PM
CALLING ALL PE GOONS: remind me again how the Black Sun is an A-OK symbol to put on the cover of your album

Should this be understood in the same way as demanding replies if it is still A-OK to keep playing violent videogames and using social media and messageboards for memes?

If one wants to draw direct links to shooting incident and Skullflowers decoration, oh please... PE goons have used the symbol long before manifest of mr. Tarrant, for wide variety of purposes and meanings. I doubt usage decreases at all, except is someone is worried about getting kicked out of "festival" for wide variety of petty reasons people can come up with.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 03:43:07 PM
Mostly joking/mocking but my point is that it's just not surprising that, if you use that symbol, most people won't want anything to do with your band and it's disingenuous to be shocked by that or act like they are the ones being unreasonable. I found it ironic to see the symbol appear in such a horrific and serious context so shortly after the flash-in-the-pan skullflower drama.

Appearing (whether it's actually the case or not) to be on the side of mass-murdering neo-nazis isn't really all that 'petty' reason for someone to kick you off a bill.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: tiny_tove on March 15, 2019, 04:06:42 PM
is the document downloadable anywhere?


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on March 15, 2019, 04:22:50 PM
Appearing (whether it's actually the case or not) to be on the side of mass-murdering neo-nazis isn't really all that 'petty' reason for someone to kick you off a bill.

Well, I find it petty - if we're talking about misinformed hysteria, which is the actual reason. Not specific content of artist. Of course if we are talking about alternative music festival, I expect nothing less. If getting kicked out from actual industrial/noise fests, then I find it amusing that after all these years, people could only approach subject matter based on surface level assumptions and tabloid level conclusions.

I personally can't be emotionally moved by such incidents or see them be more than curious incidents in course of history, Nevertheless:
At this point I'd prefer that if people -including the notorious PE GOONS- feel like spreading the manifesto or video, they do not do it over SI forum. Just for forum to be sort of... ehm, less "magnet for trouble". I'm pretty sure anyone can find them online if they search for them.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on March 15, 2019, 07:00:18 PM
Yeah that sounds wise. And yes the Daily Mail are/were sharing it so it's not exactly hard to find it seems


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: deutscheasphalt on March 15, 2019, 07:03:24 PM
Appearing (whether it's actually the case or not) to be on the side of mass-murdering neo-nazis isn't really all that 'petty' reason for someone to kick you off a bill.

How is he siding with Torrant? I don't understand.
Anyways cheers for mentioning the manifesto as I don't read the news, it's pretty hilarious.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: bitewerksMTB on March 15, 2019, 11:02:50 PM
The little bit of news I've watched, it would seem that Christchurch NZ is in the U.S. because they keep talking about America, Trump, etc.



Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: A-Z on March 16, 2019, 01:54:44 AM
prosumer preset synth

behringer echo

but what if it's a moog voyager and a roland re-201?
or a music easel and an h8000fw?

just trying to understand why you have to be so specific
as if gear price determines what is A-OK to put on album covers


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Theodore on March 16, 2019, 01:58:16 AM
CALLING ALL PE GOONS: remind me again how the Black Sun is an A-OK symbol to put on the cover of your album ...

According to this kind of "logic" we should also revise our history and heroes' names cause he had written "Turkofagos" on his gun.

(https://www.ptisidiastima.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/03/1-3.jpg)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikitaras


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: sunandsteel on March 16, 2019, 03:48:44 AM
Never understood why people who make music/art that is deemed "controversial" should have to answer for unconnected events that happened half a world away. Always found it quite annoying and preposterous.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Bob on March 16, 2019, 08:31:37 PM
If it helps put it in context I believe this news story is what led to the series of articles on The Quietus.

https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45919730

This issue was that Claudia Patatas (who was sentenced to five years) was seen to have a connection to Death In June through a photograph on social media and apparently it is claimed she did some of the  photograpic work for some album covers for the same artist. Hence The Quietus then decided to do a series on the subject of I am not mistaken but of course I may very well be.

https://datacide-magazine.com/national-action-neo-nazi-terror-group-connections-to-neofolk-scene/


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: theworldisawarfilm on March 16, 2019, 08:55:39 PM
https://i1.wp.com/datacide-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2018-11-18-at-17.44.33.png?resize=1002%2C1024&ssl=1 (https://i1.wp.com/datacide-magazine.com/wp-content/uploads/Screen-Shot-2018-11-18-at-17.44.33.png?resize=1002%2C1024&ssl=1)

anybody know the name of this guy's PE project?

EDIT: "Other images document the couple's collection of far-right memorabilia found at their Oxfordshire home including swastika cushions and clothing, as well as a swastika-shaped pastry cutter" l o l


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on March 16, 2019, 09:32:21 PM
https://datacide-magazine.com/national-action-neo-nazi-terror-group-connections-to-neofolk-scene/

Mildly amusing. Timeline seems to span over years. For example, to establish "connection" to Allerseelen because of comment made by fan on bands facebook post, before National Action even existed where this fan could be member. It is not unexpected, but mildly funny if bands are held responsible for things such as later life decisions of ex-girlfriend of past friend?

But yes, atleast in Finland, it is a undeniable fact that many members of banned organization fairly similar to NA, has background in underground music. You can see such people in regular metal gigs, occasionally even few industrial gigs, oi gigs etc. and it's nothing utterly unusual. I could promise that if one would want to do a map of finnish underground musicians ties to known or convicted neo-nazis, everybody is literally three if not two associates distance at maximum. Some may find it amusing that some of the die-hard antifascists punks play in bands with guys who play in bands with most known nsbm/rac guys. So comparing for example article linked above seems funny, when you could make one about almost every underground band in Finland. No joke.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Duncan on March 17, 2019, 02:45:08 AM
I guess the lesson here is that everyone needs something to make themselves feel less like the blinkered, hypocritical members of contemporary society that they are.  Some people deal with that by joining NSBM/RAC bands, others by writing articles about them.  They're welcome to each other.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Bloated Slutbag on March 17, 2019, 07:51:11 AM
Honestly though this comes to me as a bit of a surprise. Skullflower is one of those artists, like say Kapotte Muziek, whose work I've managed to accumulate quite a lot of over the years without ever quite calling myself a serious fan. Never once did I get any inkling as to the implications or accusations currently being leveled. Now call me ignorant. Perhaps as a consumer of music a first requirement is to better verse myself in history, signs, symbols, the lot. Maybe I never got that de Waard's Recycled Music series was a hidden message to eco terrorist cells around the world. (edit Better add RRRon to that list, just to be safe.)

It just strikes me as... odd. I'm sure Skullflower could have played the festival and not one audience member would have come away with the suggestion of anything other than maybe they should check out some more of the project's bitchin' sounds. Like, holy shit, didn't know there was this much Skullflower in existence-

https://skullflower.bandcamp.com/

Gonna have to remedy things at some point. (If the point of generating this hoopla was to get more people, or say, more casual listeners like me, into Skullflower, well then. Job well done!)

So yeah I was, and am, still, a tad incredulous. It just didn't make no sense till someone who seems to know some of the persons involved suggested that this was mainly a financial decision. That made sense. And my first comment was riffing on that.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Cementimental on March 17, 2019, 07:03:00 PM
why

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarcasm


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: EXU on May 02, 2019, 01:40:20 AM
*coff*coff*Mgla*coff*coff

It's official, anyone who ever posted on SI and have a metal band... BEWARE!

I don't know how to react to this at all.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: FreakAnimalFinland on May 02, 2019, 08:07:18 AM
*coff*coff*Mgla*coff*coff

It's official, anyone who ever posted on SI and have a metal band... BEWARE!

I don't know how to react to this at all.

Mild amusement?
Bad boys found in Black Metal. It's a news worthy story in 2019 for various reasons.


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: HONOR_IS_KING! on May 03, 2019, 12:56:52 AM
*coff*coff*Mgla*coff*coff

It's official, anyone who ever posted on SI and have a metal band... BEWARE!

I don't know how to react to this at all.

Mild amusement?
Bad boys found in Black Metal. It's a news worthy story in 2019 for various reasons.

So so so so naughty I might add... https://varisverkosto.com/2019/03/the-influencers-of-the-finnish-ns-music-scene-part-3-mikko-aspa-of-northern-heritage-clandestine-blaze-vapaudenristi-sarvilevyt/


Title: Re: Witch Hunt Season is Open (Skullflower recent controversy)
Post by: Scat-O-Logy on May 10, 2019, 11:40:25 AM
*coff*coff*Mgla*coff*coff

It's official, anyone who ever posted on SI and have a metal band... BEWARE!

I don't know how to react to this at all.

Mild amusement?
Bad boys found in Black Metal. It's a news worthy story in 2019 for various reasons.

So so so so naughty I might add... https://varisverkosto.com/2019/03/the-influencers-of-the-finnish-ns-music-scene-part-3-mikko-aspa-of-northern-heritage-clandestine-blaze-vapaudenristi-sarvilevyt/

OMG